Story Idea - Help with Prisoners in Paintings

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Original post: Spiderkeg

Hey everyone, first post here. I was not aware of where my question really fits so I stuck it under this topic. My question revolves around the creative side. I am an author writing a book which is mixed with science fiction and fantasy. I have heavy usage of psionics and parapsychology through my story, in fact it acts as a huge foundation.

Now I'm at this point where I require some interesting plot devices, and like many parts in my story, I am trying to find some method of realism to make it happen. For the science fiction foundations, I do try to adhere to some level of physics.

OK, so here's the situation and keep in mind, this is still a work in progress. There comes a time in the story where prisoners of the more heinous crimes are sentenced to a prison of most unusual manner, and one that is about torment and paying for sins. I would like to have it where paintings (yes, the kind in art galleries) are used to house a prisoner in such a way where the prisoner will no longer age but will still feel the ill effects.

At the moment my current problem is finding a believable way, even to me, to explain how a physical tangible person can become trapped in that of a two dimensional painting, where awarness and emotions can still operate but the physical aging is removed. That way a painting/prisoner will be able to receive punishment for as long as needed until "released" from the painting. I wasn't really thinking of having the painted prisoners move about, as in something like Harry Potter, becasue I figure that might require me to expand onto the aging aspect.

One of the reasons I need to find a way to make this work is because at some interval in the story, someone uses one of these paintings to jump from their point in time to a future time without the complications of aging. However, before coming to that realization I toyed with the idea of prisoners in paintings for the simplistic but gruesome reasons of being.

I should also mention that at the moment, magic as it is in my story, is merely the alteration of physical reality. I figure I can accomplish almost any task, however I stick to the idea that it must be believable and follow some level of physics.

One problem that I believe I found a solution to was, how to have the painting "remember" the prisoner who is locked within. I think that using the blood of the prisoner mixed in with the paint used for the painting could solve that. I am still just a bit lost on the whole "how to get the prisoner in the painting?" issue. Does a door way open up? Is the prisoner sucked in? Does he become a data stream and become encoded? Obviously I'm looking for a less cheesy cliché method of transferring prisoner to painting and vice versa.

So, does anyone have some further creative ideas that might help?

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Original post: MadHatR137

Wow....nice concept....I'll certainly ponder that a bit for you and try to help you out....afterall, I myself used to dabble in the written creative arts...untill my computer ate a 80 page story I had been working on for a long time....and I didn't have a hardcopy.......

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Original post: MadHatR137

OK, walking around in circles and talking out loud to yourself is the greates thing in the world... It shouldd be a long drawn out process...haha, thats kinda funny, paintings and a drawn out process.... Using the criminal's blood is definately a good idea, it should be a process of several days, wherein a painting is made fitting of the crime of the victim...after the painting is finished, I see a long hallway and a procession not unlike someone walking death row or to a guillotine. On either sides of the prisoner could be a gallery of other prisoners, or perhaps a gallery of the elite, who pay to see the "executions" of justice....at the end of the hall is another room where perhaps some sort of priests are chanting, or perhaps the priest has been there the entire time with the prisoner, walking down the hall...so the prisoner is thrown in front of the painting and read the verdict, "The punishment for your heinous crimes...yadda yadda yadda yadda...." and the prisoner is pushed into the painting, but of course they put a hand up to push against it....and scramble to run away...but in their scrambling to run away, their hand is still on the painting, as if attached by a paint/canvas-like membrane that streches as they run...and they can only get several feet, perhaps a meter or two away, but the membrane pulls them back..the fall to the floor, put their feet against the wall, try to pull away. But then suddenly two more membranes streach out of the canvas and attach to the legs and slowly pull them in...they scream and wiggle, until they are silenced by the painting, and the last thing seen entering the painting is a hand, twisted and grasping for freedom.... And then the painting resembles something you'd see in a Hellraiser movie...

The whole time, everyone else in the room is very calm, cold and emotionless.....

Thats what I see....it gets rid of the idea of some sort of vortex or datastream.....kind of turns the painting into a living entity itself...a personal Hell...like some sort of ameoba....it just engulfs its victims.... Of course..this is an idea from a pure fantasy perspective....since you did really say what sort of time-frame the story takes place...I'm imagining Renaissance-esque style...

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Original post: Mmothra

Perhaps the twist could be that these "paintings" are not actually paintings but windows to miniature bubble universes created specially for the criminal and crime committed. Time distortion is built into these mini-universes so that the vignette changes very slowly, thus creating the appearance (at least at first glance) of a photorealistic work of art. These windows/"paintings" are placed in a prison "gallery" used for public education.

A tad "Outer Limits" but would be an interesting read, I figger.


Markus

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Original post: MadHatR137

Mmothra,
I was thinking that would be a good idea too...instead of a "freezeframe" more of an incredible time distortion that would appear to the observer as an unmoving picture....because that implies that the person in the painting is still living and reacting to their punishment...

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Original post: Mmothra

There was a wonderful story I remember from childhood where an archeologist discovers a peculiar statue made from an unknown stone in a remote desert and, being unable to take the entire statue with him, uses his chisel to remove the big toe in order to take it back to his lab. It ends up in a drawer for a number of years when he rediscovers it and realizes that this is a made from a substance currently unknown to humanity. He rushes back to the remote spot and discovers the "statue" has changed its position and is now grasping its foot and grimacing in pain.

Spoooooooooooky!

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Original post: Spiderkeg

That is rather spooky.

My story has no real gods, and no real heaven or hell. Anything mentioned about Gods, heaven, or hell is simply referring to any belief structure of the people in my story. So I can't use deities or anything related to solve my problem.

I don't know too much about wormholes, pocket universes, etc. to really picture it (no pun intended) so could anyone enlighten me on how these work, enough to write about them anyways?

I have really been toying with this idea. One major issue is, how can I realistically explain how someone becomes trapped within a painting? I appreciate those of you who game me suggestions.

In the story "The Picture of Dorian Grey" it revolves around this guy who gets a portrait done of him, and then he suddenly stops aging. Turns out that while he stopped aging, his portrait was doing the aging for him. When at last he was confronted with his own portrait, and the decayed image of himself, he himself turned to dust.

Another thing that is important in my story is that of thought and memory, and with the use of blood mixed with the paint, I'm wondering if there's a way I can link the convert and trap the physical into the painting itself, keeping the mental and emotional processes active so long as the subject is conscious during the imprisoning procedure.

So I'm left with...
1. How is it possible to trap someone into the painting... can thought transcend and convert the physical and imprint the memory of someone into a painting so that the process can be reversed?
2. What would the trapping procedure look like, let it be realistic. While I like the idea of the painting grabbing for the victim, I do not want the object to actually animate as though alive. It will merely act as a visual scroll, keeping record of the prisoner trapped within.

Instead of having the prisoner total aware and moving in this painted world, I think it best to have them reliving over and over a single memory or emotion. That is why it is important to have them conscious. The jailer can instill in the prisoner before converting them over the single thought or emotion that seems fitting, whether it be fear, fire, helplessness, guilt, or anything that might prove useful towards torture or rehibilitation.

Anyways, that's my ultimate goal. Comments, suggestions, helpful ideas?

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Original post: Xæden

Hm, seems to me that Mmothra's idea about bubble universes is probably the most physically sound one, as with mixing blood into paint and such, even if you made pretty heavy use of the more occult elements of your story, you'd probably still end up needing to incorporate some form of artificial universes into it to avoid requiring branching off into genetic complexities involving cloning, etc., (especially if you want a reversible process) in order to get the issues of sustained consciousness to work out just and making it more complicated than it needs to be...

It depends how scientifically advanced the population concerned in your story are, as well, as they'd presumably need to have attained a fairly high level of technology in order to manipulate realities, and such...


Perhaps something like this might work...
1) Empty artificial universe is manufactured via a complex process of wormhole mechanics (but following a generic and previously used formula - Eg: a prison cell's interior), and a stable wormhole to it is somehow infused into an empty frame (that could eventually be used to hold a painting). The frame is a specially manufactured element capable of containing the wormhole (so the frame is a Stargate-like device, I suppose, minus any built in or visible methods of control).
2) The frame, complete with the newly manufactured wormhole, is mounted in some advanced looking device on the back wall of an enclosed, symmetrical and suitably featureless room of some emotionless colour, like a very metallic grey. The prisoner is escorted to this room, then left alone with the painting. The heavy door (in the wall opposite the painting) slams shut behind the prisoner, and bolts and assorted powerful locks are heard slotting into place.
3) Currently, the painting displays a view of an empty cell, and it's surface shimmers mysteriously. The prisoner, now alone in this room, realises his fate, and may either look dejected or claw at the door and shout or whatever you think someone would do in his situation... But anyway...
4) Lights on the device the frame is mounted in begin to flicker, as the previously stable wormhole is manipulated automatically or manually by some unseen (yet safely isolated) technician. The wormhole assume black-hole like properties, as it's gravity rapidly increases. The prisoner, realising what is happening, may grope for something to hold onto until the gravity becomes too powerful to resist, and he is sucked into the "painting". (His body would probably need to distort in some way if the painting frame is intended to be quite small, but that could easily be attributed to the effects of the gravity, or conflicting universes, or both...)
5) As he is forcibly transported into the cell, a previously implanted device in his mind may kick into action, fast forwarding to depressing memories, and inducing assorted unpleasant emotions. A third person description of the prisoners thoughts (and increasing fear, as he realises what the device is doing) would probably be needed to convey this to readers, but anyway - when this implanted device has served it's purpose, it transmits a signal to whatever device back in our universe is manipulating the wormhole which consequently triggers a time loop within the enclosed universe, forcing the prisoner to relive this amplified fear and depression continuously. A (eventually reversible) chemical change is also triggered within the painting's frame, which causes the shimmering surface to "solidify", somehow, capturing the last observable scene within the cell in a painting.
6) (Our universe: - Hehe, I just realised this might be getting rather confusing..) The device the completed painting is mounted in shuts down, the door to this enclosed room unlocks, and a suitably expressionless figure retrieves the painting, to mount it somewhere...


You could also add some religious overtones, I suppose, perhaps cloak it in ceremony, but describe the underlying scientific processes, or something. Hope that helps somehow, anyways. :-)

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Original post: callum

what you need to do is substantially remove the third dimension (leaving only height and bredth but no depth).... a mirror reflects a three dimensional object in two dimensions while maintaining an illusion of three dimensions (holgrams are similar in this aspect and i think the idea of capturing prisoners in holograms was used in one of the Superman movies). i don't know how plusable it is that objects can have dimensions removed.... bugs never seem to happy when they are reduced to two dimensions.

it might be more possible to create a homunculus of a person in a two dimesions, identical in everyway (even in her guilt) to the criminal, execute the criminal but allow the personality to continue in the two dimension medium (similar to the notion that people could become immortal by downloading their personality onto microchip or piece of crystal). this however does not preserve physical integrity and the person would then need to finds some biological or mechanical host to return to three dimensional reality (although perhap she could possess/obsess someone else while still in the picture by persuading a besotted lover to reek a terrible and bloody revenge as Voldemort does in the Chamber of Secrets). dna and nueral networks are both three dimensional structures however the logical structures of the mind (if we assume the brain works in binary language) could be reconstructed in two dimensions.... just like you can represent a decision making process in a flow chart.

however unless you are writing science fiction, sometime less is more in fantasy and it is the reactions and motivations of characters that give verity rather than the technology.

hope the writing goes well.

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Original post: Mmothra

If the idea of alternate or "bubble" universes is too technical, do what the occultists do...change it to astral environments. They could be custom-created by some powerful occult personage and the blood in the paint could be part of the binding ceremony.

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Original post: visceral/spagyrical

Yeah, I was going to suggest that you have an alchemist in the story who serves as the prison's "resident artist." That alchemist use the alkahest (or universal solvent, aka the astral fluid) as his paint. He takes the alkahest that constitutes the prisoner's body and slowly reforms that alkahest into a painting. Not only does this alkahest make for perfect painting material, but by reshaping the alkahest that constitutes the prisoner, the prisoner would actually BE the painting. He wouldn't be trapped inside the painting. He would BE it.

v/s

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Original post: Mmothra

[QUOTE=visceral/spagyrical]Yeah, I was going to suggest that you have an alchemist in the story who serves as the prison's "resident artist." That alchemist use the alkahest (or universal solvent, aka the astral fluid) as his paint. He takes the alkahest that constitutes the prisoner's body and slowly reforms that alkahest into a painting. Not only does this alkahest make for perfect painting material, but by reshaping the alkahest that constitutes the prisoner, the prisoner would actually BE the painting. He wouldn't be trapped inside the painting. He would BE it.

v/s[/QUOTE]
Oooooh, terrific idea!

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Original post: Spiderkeg

You'll have to enlighten me on what Alkahest exactly is. I need to visualize it in order to work it through a scenario.

I appreciate the responses, seriously. I knew this wouldn't be an easy idea to tackle, but I do find it fun nonetheless. Considering that mirrors, reflections, and photographs take a 3 dimentional object and present the object in a 2 dimentional format, I wondered if there was some very ingenious and creative method to convert a person to a 2D medium and back, while still respecting the universe and the physics involved.

One vital reason why memory and emotion are so important in this process is that pure thought alone in my story acts as both key and engine. Magic in my story is not about ritual, reagents, or recitings... I wanted to come up with an idea that would allow for a variety of possibilities, where a person's will and thought could cause change in the world. Think psionics but on a higher level where the mental processes can really change the patterns of reality. There are limits though, someone can't just up and create a small sun in their living room.

Please tell me more about this Alkahest stuff. My initial idea was to have the prisoner become trapped in the painting, to be aware enough to relive his crimes over and over, and to be then released at a later time. A friend mentioned that it sounded somewhat like the movie "Demolition Man" where people were frozen, under went some mental stimulation while being frozen (like rehibilitation), and then thawed and released. After the jailing, the painter would then paint on the canvas a depicted theme or scene which would enhance the prisoner's torment and experience.

Sorry if this seems repititious, I'm just getting out of the way my initial expectations.

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Original post: visceral/spagyrical

Okay, I got a little mixed up in my last post. What I was calling the alkahest is actually called the prima materia. I don't know what I was thinking at the time. I've been doing this for years.

When you dream you see images, right? Well, let's call those images paintings and let's call the substance of those images paint, or, in alchemical terms, the prima materia. Now, as an alchemist, I can open my third eye and view the world around me in terms of the wet paint, or prima materia, that dries to form the painting we call physical reality.

Now, if I were powerful enough, I could apply the alkahest to physical reality, dissolve matter into a pool of wet paint, and then recreate physical reality by repainting it. Once I obtain that paint by dissolving the prisoner's physical body, I could scoop it up, and repaint him in the form of a painting, which I may then hang on the wall and laugh at.

Here's the process I use in terms of prisoners and the art of painting (and take notes because if you find time to practice this yourself, you can apply it to the writing of your novel. I do this with essays. In other words, what I'm about to tell you actually works.):

The prisoner = lead, or base metal
The alchemist's imagination = the alkahest
The alchemist's paint = the prima materia
The idea that gives life to the prisoner (i.e., his soul) = sulphur

All righty, here we go...

I take the prisoner. I place him inside a large retort (a chemical apparatus). I pour the alkahest into the retort. I then attach an alembic to the top of the retort and hermetically seal it. The alkahest dissolves the prisoner. The sulphur is extracted from the prisoner, leaving a glob of dissolved matter (the prima materia) at the bottom of the retort. The sulphur rises to the top of the retort and enters the alembic attached to the top. I then remove the alembic with the sulphur trapped inside and set it down next to a few other strange apparati. I pick up the retort and pour the prima materia into a bowl and proceed to paint a painting with it. Once I complete the painting, I crack open the hermetically sealed alembic and apply the sulphur to the painting. The painting (i.e., the prisoner) dries. However, you must keep in mind that the prisoner isn't the painting until the sulphur is applied. This leaves open an oppurtunity for escape. If someone can get to the hermetically sealed alembic before the alchemist applies it to the prisoner's reformed physical body (i.e., the painting), that someone could apply that sulphur to, say, a dead body. As a result, that dead body would be given new life--the life of the prisoner--because the sulphur that gives life to the dead body is the prisoner's sulphur. The prisoner, having escaped the alchemist's sadistically artistic experiments, runs with his savior to freedom. The end.

v/s

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Original post: visceral/spagyrical

By the way, Spiderkeg, I don't know about anyone else, but I have an endless imagination. On top of that, I don't write novels. I write essays. So, even if I did want to write a novel, I know I'd never follow through with it. As far as I'm concerned, if you decide to use my idea, then go right ahead. It's your idea from here on out. No strings attached. Just do me one favor...

Please tell us when it gets published. I'd really like to read it regardless of whether or not you use alkahest on your prisoners.

v/s