Original post: durki
One has to negate oneself to attain enlightenment. Following are some of the techniques :-
(1) Fasting. It purges off all the toxins. Body without food feeds on the toxins inside it for its energy requirements. It is central to Jain belief. Jainism has 24 teachers with Rishabh Dev as first and Mahavir as last.
(2) Getting detached from all possessions makes mind free to delve into the spiritual matters.
(3) Considering one's body & mind secondary to the soul / spirit inside.
Self-negation
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Self-negation
Original post: splendorsolis
There's no self-negation because there's no self to be negated.
And so forth and so on...
There's no self-negation because there's no self to be negated.
And so forth and so on...
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Self-negation
Original post: durki
Ego consisting of body-mind matrix needs to be negated for attaining Consciousness that is the core of your being.splendorsolis;350743 wrote:There's no self-negation because there's no self to be negated.
And so forth and so on...
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Self-negation
Original post: Draginvry
[QUOTE=splendorsolis;350743]There's no self-negation because there's no self to be negated.[/QUOTE]
I agree. Even the concept of positive and negative is illusion. As long as one is trying to negate the self, one is confirming to themself the illusion of having a self.
You can't lose the self, because the self was never there. Enlightenment is the realization that there was never a self to lose. Not only is there nothing to lose, but there was never anything to gain.
[QUOTE=splendorsolis;350743]There's no self-negation because there's no self to be negated.[/QUOTE]
I agree. Even the concept of positive and negative is illusion. As long as one is trying to negate the self, one is confirming to themself the illusion of having a self.
You can't lose the self, because the self was never there. Enlightenment is the realization that there was never a self to lose. Not only is there nothing to lose, but there was never anything to gain.
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Self-negation
Original post: simex
Neti neti (neither this, nor that)
As long as someone practices viveka (discrimination), they will eventually realize that even "neti neti" needs to be negated. Imperfect concepts often lead past themselves. You're not going to step off the third rung of a ladder and on to the roof, but you're going to need that rung to get to the final one.
There have to be intermediate forms between avidya and vidya. All dichotomies are continuum in disguise.
Neti neti (neither this, nor that)
As long as someone practices viveka (discrimination), they will eventually realize that even "neti neti" needs to be negated. Imperfect concepts often lead past themselves. You're not going to step off the third rung of a ladder and on to the roof, but you're going to need that rung to get to the final one.
There have to be intermediate forms between avidya and vidya. All dichotomies are continuum in disguise.
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Self-negation
Original post: Rin Daemoko
I do not believe that merely ridding oneself of their material possessions is enough to sever attachment to those objects. Anything done without the correct motivation or understanding can be either futile or damaging.
Likewise, there are stories of householders in Buddhism (those who own a house and have possessions) who have demonstrated great wisdom despite having these things. This illustrates that it's not neither having nor not having objects that causes one to become wise. It's the attachment to the objects rather than the objects themselves.
Similarly with fasting, or consideration of one's body. We must keep the body strong and healthy if we are to have the vitality to continue our spiritual practice. It is a noble thought that one may be willing to undergo such practices or considerations in the pursuit of liberation, but we must not forget practicality.
I do not believe that merely ridding oneself of their material possessions is enough to sever attachment to those objects. Anything done without the correct motivation or understanding can be either futile or damaging.
Likewise, there are stories of householders in Buddhism (those who own a house and have possessions) who have demonstrated great wisdom despite having these things. This illustrates that it's not neither having nor not having objects that causes one to become wise. It's the attachment to the objects rather than the objects themselves.
Similarly with fasting, or consideration of one's body. We must keep the body strong and healthy if we are to have the vitality to continue our spiritual practice. It is a noble thought that one may be willing to undergo such practices or considerations in the pursuit of liberation, but we must not forget practicality.
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Self-negation
Original post: durki
What is needed is the shift in the mental attitude. After your mental attitude has become subtle & spiritual, all the worldly botherations fall off.
What is needed is the shift in the mental attitude. After your mental attitude has become subtle & spiritual, all the worldly botherations fall off.
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Self-negation
Original post: Draginvry
[QUOTE=Rin Daemoko;350796]I do not believe that merely ridding oneself of their material possessions is enough to sever attachment to those objects.[/QUOTE]
It's not. But many people foolishly think that it helps.
An idiot who throws away their possessions doesn't become an enlightened being. They merely become an idiot without possessions.
[QUOTE=Rin Daemoko;350796]I do not believe that merely ridding oneself of their material possessions is enough to sever attachment to those objects.[/QUOTE]
It's not. But many people foolishly think that it helps.
An idiot who throws away their possessions doesn't become an enlightened being. They merely become an idiot without possessions.
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Original post: the phoenix
Self-negation wreaks of the doctrine of innate sin, but the ideas in the original post are valid recommendations, therefore the thread's title is a tremendously poor choice of words!
It is more helpful to speak of transcending rather than denying, and then you can get more specific as opposed to general and explain how the transcendence works. Because we are the ego to an extent, so just saying to deny the ego outright is cutting part of us off and ignoring the burden of responsibility, pointing rather to some external salvation, in this case a "soul" as if inside us without being us. That is why desire is so talked about, it reveals the mechanism by which me can succumb to lower things and get stuck in them.
Self-negation wreaks of the doctrine of innate sin, but the ideas in the original post are valid recommendations, therefore the thread's title is a tremendously poor choice of words!
It is more helpful to speak of transcending rather than denying, and then you can get more specific as opposed to general and explain how the transcendence works. Because we are the ego to an extent, so just saying to deny the ego outright is cutting part of us off and ignoring the burden of responsibility, pointing rather to some external salvation, in this case a "soul" as if inside us without being us. That is why desire is so talked about, it reveals the mechanism by which me can succumb to lower things and get stuck in them.
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Self-negation
Original post: durki
You can transcend only if you negate your lower egoistic self consisting of conflicting thoughts, emotions and desires.
You can transcend only if you negate your lower egoistic self consisting of conflicting thoughts, emotions and desires.
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Self-negation
Original post: Qez
Throwing away all your possessions. Sounds like a good idea at the time, but then the ego makes an identity about it. "Look at me, I gave away all my possessions, I must be closer to enlightenment than everyone else!" Now are we better or worse off than before?
Throwing away all your possessions. Sounds like a good idea at the time, but then the ego makes an identity about it. "Look at me, I gave away all my possessions, I must be closer to enlightenment than everyone else!" Now are we better or worse off than before?
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Self-negation
Original post: astral_light21
No-negation, no-lower ego, no-thoughts, no-emotions, no-desires, no-self...no-nothing? Something, something...something?
No-negation, no-lower ego, no-thoughts, no-emotions, no-desires, no-self...no-nothing? Something, something...something?
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Self-negation
Original post: Yoshiaki_Abe
The other point of importance here is the opposite view. Though getting rid of one's possessions can become a path to self-negation if applied correctly, something must be said in favor of the possessions themselves.
Why do possessions exist? Are they merely here to detract and tempt our egos? I don't believe so. For something so widespread---arguably even the poorest of humans possesses something---there must be some kind of overall importance. Now, I will be the first to agree that it is never a good thing when possessions rule their possessors, but, the other side of the coin that is rarely seen is that possessions can also be used for good. The easiest example is that literature and art evoke positive emotions and capabilities in man, allowing him to strive to become better (not necessarily through the path of self-negation).
The other point of importance here is the opposite view. Though getting rid of one's possessions can become a path to self-negation if applied correctly, something must be said in favor of the possessions themselves.
Why do possessions exist? Are they merely here to detract and tempt our egos? I don't believe so. For something so widespread---arguably even the poorest of humans possesses something---there must be some kind of overall importance. Now, I will be the first to agree that it is never a good thing when possessions rule their possessors, but, the other side of the coin that is rarely seen is that possessions can also be used for good. The easiest example is that literature and art evoke positive emotions and capabilities in man, allowing him to strive to become better (not necessarily through the path of self-negation).
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Self-negation
Original post: moonburn33
And computers allow people to discuss Eastern Philosophy in Occultforums
And computers allow people to discuss Eastern Philosophy in Occultforums
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Self-negation
Original post: Draginvry
[QUOTE=moonburn33;352082]And computers allow people to discuss Eastern Philosophy in Occultforums[/QUOTE]
They also allow for computer games that some people play compulsively for twelve hours a day.
It's not what you possess that matters, it's how you use it.
[QUOTE=moonburn33;352082]And computers allow people to discuss Eastern Philosophy in Occultforums
[/QUOTE]They also allow for computer games that some people play compulsively for twelve hours a day.
It's not what you possess that matters, it's how you use it.
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Self-negation
Original post: IAO131
93,
Negation is a useful device.
Though I enjoy splendorsolis' remarks about there is no self to negate, although negating that self is exactly the way to (pragmatically) recognize/enact this... so semantic quibbles might be a bit much.
Theres a famous Zen story where a patriarch was looking for a successor. The head pupil wrote:
The body is a Bodhi tree,
the mind a standing mirror bright.
At all times polish it diligently,
and let no dust alight.
and another wrote under this
There is no Bodhi tree;
Neither is there the stand of the bright mirror.
Originally, everything is empty;
Where could the dust alight?
The latter won the Zen master's approval.
IAO131
93,
Negation is a useful device.
Though I enjoy splendorsolis' remarks about there is no self to negate, although negating that self is exactly the way to (pragmatically) recognize/enact this... so semantic quibbles might be a bit much.
Theres a famous Zen story where a patriarch was looking for a successor. The head pupil wrote:
The body is a Bodhi tree,
the mind a standing mirror bright.
At all times polish it diligently,
and let no dust alight.
and another wrote under this
There is no Bodhi tree;
Neither is there the stand of the bright mirror.
Originally, everything is empty;
Where could the dust alight?
The latter won the Zen master's approval.
IAO131
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Original post: Yoshiaki_Abe
Oh Hui-Neng... even though I'm not Zen at all, that is music to my ears.
Oh Hui-Neng... even though I'm not Zen at all, that is music to my ears.
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Self-negation
Original post: durki
' I am the body ' idea drops off after toxins of the clogs & cobwebs in the body-mind system are released away. This causes removal of fear and consequent non-violent attitude.
' I am the body ' idea drops off after toxins of the clogs & cobwebs in the body-mind system are released away. This causes removal of fear and consequent non-violent attitude.
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Self-negation
Original post: splendorsolis
Kukai's "The Secret Key to the Heart Sutra" may prove to be enlightening about this question, so to speak.
Kukai's "The Secret Key to the Heart Sutra" may prove to be enlightening about this question, so to speak.
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Self-negation
Original post: splendorsolis
http://books.google.com/books?id=FGtbmT ... #PPA262,M1
That's part of the text, though the complete text can be found in the book itself, which is worth reading.
http://books.google.com/books?id=FGtbmT ... #PPA262,M1
That's part of the text, though the complete text can be found in the book itself, which is worth reading.
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Self-negation
Original post: Yoshiaki_Abe
[QUOTE=splendorsolis;353165]http://books.google.com/books?id=FGtbmT ... #PPA262,M1
That's part of the text, though the complete text can be found in the book itself, which is worth reading.[/QUOTE]
When is anything by or about Kukai not worth reading?
[QUOTE=splendorsolis;353165]http://books.google.com/books?id=FGtbmT ... #PPA262,M1
That's part of the text, though the complete text can be found in the book itself, which is worth reading.[/QUOTE]
When is anything by or about Kukai not worth reading?
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Self-negation
Original post: Luke Saint
[QUOTE=Draginvry;350766]
[QUOTE=splendorsolis;350743]There's no self-negation because there's no self to be negated.
And so forth and so on...[/QUOTE]
I agree. Even the concept of positive and negative is illusion. As long as one is trying to negate the self, one is confirming to themself the illusion of having a self.
[/QUOTE]
If there is no self then exactly what is agreeing with that statement?
: )
[poor humor, i apologize]
The theme of negation of the self is one that has occupied my thoughts a great deal lately. One can not merely deny the self, it must be done with the right intention. I definitely know that the importance that I attach to the feelings of my ego are grotesque and repugnant. Now, it is doing something about that. Damn, but then that realization itself reflects the importance I place upon the ego, earning such titles as I give: 'grotesque' and 'repugnant'. So it is something to do and should transcend the trappings of because.
[QUOTE=durki;351167]What is needed is the shift in the mental attitude. After your mental attitude has become subtle & spiritual, all the worldly botherations fall off.[/QUOTE]
Wise words durki. My thanks for them.
[QUOTE=Draginvry;350766]
[QUOTE=splendorsolis;350743]There's no self-negation because there's no self to be negated.
And so forth and so on...[/QUOTE]
I agree. Even the concept of positive and negative is illusion. As long as one is trying to negate the self, one is confirming to themself the illusion of having a self.
[/QUOTE]
If there is no self then exactly what is agreeing with that statement?
: )
[poor humor, i apologize]
The theme of negation of the self is one that has occupied my thoughts a great deal lately. One can not merely deny the self, it must be done with the right intention. I definitely know that the importance that I attach to the feelings of my ego are grotesque and repugnant. Now, it is doing something about that. Damn, but then that realization itself reflects the importance I place upon the ego, earning such titles as I give: 'grotesque' and 'repugnant'. So it is something to do and should transcend the trappings of because.
[QUOTE=durki;351167]What is needed is the shift in the mental attitude. After your mental attitude has become subtle & spiritual, all the worldly botherations fall off.[/QUOTE]
Wise words durki. My thanks for them.
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Original post: Raven43
What if you give away the things you do not need to someone who can use the items? Clear space in your life & give yourself room to think without wasting time taking care of useless items.
What if you give away the things you do not need to someone who can use the items? Clear space in your life & give yourself room to think without wasting time taking care of useless items.
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Original post: durki
I did exactly the same when I left my old place to settle at my present location.Raven43;365131 wrote:What if you give away the things you do not need to someone who can use the items? Clear space in your life & give yourself room to think without wasting time taking care of useless items.