Original post: durki
Summum bonum of Eastern Wisdom is to undo all the knowledge that you have acquired in the sense of getting detached from it so as to remove the dust of accumulated learnings down the ages so as to make the mirror of mind clean in order to facilitate or enable Supreme Spirit to shine through it thus taking the inner path of Self-realization rather than the external one of aggrandizement.
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Original post: Qez
The problem with doing things to "achieve" enlightenment is that achievement is purely an ego-thing, so it wont work. Time itself is an ego-construct. "I want/need to be enlightened" gets the mind grasping at something to do, some glory, some honour in being enlightened. The mind then conceptualises it, idealises it and makes it unobtainable. Then you have to lose this concept.
Self-realisation, "realise" means to become fully aware of something that was obscure. The thing is - you are already enlightened. Being aware or "mindful" in this moment is enlightenment. There is nothing to do, nothing to achieve. "I am that I am"
The problem with doing things to "achieve" enlightenment is that achievement is purely an ego-thing, so it wont work. Time itself is an ego-construct. "I want/need to be enlightened" gets the mind grasping at something to do, some glory, some honour in being enlightened. The mind then conceptualises it, idealises it and makes it unobtainable. Then you have to lose this concept.
Self-realisation, "realise" means to become fully aware of something that was obscure. The thing is - you are already enlightened. Being aware or "mindful" in this moment is enlightenment. There is nothing to do, nothing to achieve. "I am that I am"
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Original post: durki
Nice. Our aim should be to remove all clogs & cobwebs from the mind. We have to undo all desires, becomings and thoughts. Let the last 'I' thought also vanish so that we can simply be.Qez;350736 wrote:The problem with doing things to "achieve" enlightenment is that achievement is purely an ego-thing, so it wont work. Time itself is an ego-construct. "I want/need to be enlightened" gets the mind grasping at something to do, some glory, some honour in being enlightened. The mind then conceptualises it, idealises it and makes it unobtainable. Then you have to lose this concept.
Self-realisation, "realise" means to become fully aware of something that was obscure. The thing is - you are already enlightened. Being aware or "mindful" in this moment is enlightenment. There is nothing to do, nothing to achieve. "I am that I am"
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Original post: Qez
I like this passage from the Tao Te Ching:
I believe we have it the wrong way around! There is no aim! By simply being, all of these things become removed/undone. How to "simply be"? Just be mindful, pay attention in this very moment, our body, our emotions, our thoughts. The clogs the cobwebs, the desires, becomings, thoughts - they may arise in this moment, but they are part of this moment and by accepting and seeing them for what they are, we are no longer attached to them.durki;350739 wrote:Nice. Our aim should be to remove all clogs & cobwebs from the mind. We have to undo all desires, becomings and thoughts. Let the last 'I' thought also vanish so that we can simply be.
I like this passage from the Tao Te Ching:
If the mind is always rattling on about this and that, then who is it that is actually listening?We join spokes together in a wheel,
but it is the center hole
that makes the wagon move.
We shape clay into a pot,
but it is the emptiness inside
that holds whatever we want.
We hammer wood for a house,
but it is the inner space
that makes it livable.
We work with being,
but non-being is what we use.
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Original post: myblindeye
Qez,
You have a fresh way of seeing things so simple, so old. I'll try (no yoda here please!) to take it to mind. I am some where between Taoism (Lao Tzu at least) and Budhism. There is something in my mind I have been chasing, yet the Tao has always been here in me, and yet I still chase...
Qez,
You have a fresh way of seeing things so simple, so old. I'll try (no yoda here please!) to take it to mind. I am some where between Taoism (Lao Tzu at least) and Budhism. There is something in my mind I have been chasing, yet the Tao has always been here in me, and yet I still chase...
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Original post: Qez
The Tao Te Ching, for me, is a timeless masterpiece. The reason I believe this so, is that the Tao Te Ching is intellectually nonsense, but the words resonate at a deeper level, a deeper understanding, beyond mind. One can simple read one verse, and ponder its essence in silence without the mind. For me it is amazing!
There are 29 translations of the Tao Te Ching on this website, and a comparison line by line. Priceless!
http://wayist.org/ttc%20compared/index.htm
I also find poems by Rumi enthralling for the same reason!
The Tao Te Ching, for me, is a timeless masterpiece. The reason I believe this so, is that the Tao Te Ching is intellectually nonsense, but the words resonate at a deeper level, a deeper understanding, beyond mind. One can simple read one verse, and ponder its essence in silence without the mind. For me it is amazing!
There are 29 translations of the Tao Te Ching on this website, and a comparison line by line. Priceless!
http://wayist.org/ttc%20compared/index.htm
I also find poems by Rumi enthralling for the same reason!
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Original post: durki
I think it is all a matter of altering one's mental state. Once mind turns inward, external world simply disappears.
I think it is all a matter of altering one's mental state. Once mind turns inward, external world simply disappears.
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Original post: Yoshiaki_Abe
I believe it's different for everyone. Some of us who tend to gravitate towards the traditional Buddhistic path are struggling to exterminate our egos and live unfettered by karmic chains. Others tend to gravitate towards the opposite path, in which we realize that we are what we have always been---ourselves.
However, what must be also realized is that not everyone fits into one of these two sections. Each of these sections upon closer examination splinters into many different paths, so it is nearly impossible to group people into either one, though they work well for general descriptions. Ergo, everyone is different, and the paths that they choose are unique.
I believe it's different for everyone. Some of us who tend to gravitate towards the traditional Buddhistic path are struggling to exterminate our egos and live unfettered by karmic chains. Others tend to gravitate towards the opposite path, in which we realize that we are what we have always been---ourselves.
However, what must be also realized is that not everyone fits into one of these two sections. Each of these sections upon closer examination splinters into many different paths, so it is nearly impossible to group people into either one, though they work well for general descriptions. Ergo, everyone is different, and the paths that they choose are unique.
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Original post: durki
Elimination of ego is not extinction. It is discarding limited joys and getting Infinite Joy or rather becoming JOY itself. And this is Being.
Elimination of ego is not extinction. It is discarding limited joys and getting Infinite Joy or rather becoming JOY itself. And this is Being.
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Original post: Qez
[QUOTE=Yoshiaki_Abe;351599]struggling to exterminate our egos and live unfettered by karmic chains.[/QUOTE]
Struggling would be the correct word to use. How can we use the ego to destroy itself? How frustrating? Can a shadow destroy itself? Step back from the shadow, see it for what it is. This very moment, when we are aware of the sensations of our bodies, our minds. How can the ego possibly exist in this moment? In this moment, with awareness, *we* are in control. When awareness is lost, the moment is lost and the ego grasps it to dwell on goals, past mistakes, future accomplishments. How sad to give up this moment of pure joy for a moment filled with useless, futile, ego-filled nonsense?
"Live unfettered by karmic chains?" We are life itself! How easy it is to give our life to the ego? Then life becomes something that we have rather than something that we are. To sacrifice our life to something that doesn't exist, a shadow? Isn't this total madness?
[QUOTE=Yoshiaki_Abe;351599]Others tend to gravitate towards the opposite path, in which we realize that we are what we have always been[/QUOTE]
The ego likes to discriminate -- this is better than that -- this is different. Does it really matter? Through investigation we can really see the nature of the ego, and the lies we tell ourselves and actually believe. Both the Tao Te Ching and Heart Sutra warn against this.
Mindfulness and insight (Vipassana) meditation is a practice of Buddhism. There is no opposite path - what else is there to do but realise? Some kind of goal for the ego? Mindfulness allows us to be in this moment, so the ego cannot grasp it. With mindfulness meditation we are given the tools to allow us to take back the moment. By applying this to each and every moment, when it becomes effortless - we are enlightened and the ego can no longer exist.
[QUOTE=Yoshiaki_Abe;351599]struggling to exterminate our egos and live unfettered by karmic chains.[/QUOTE]
Struggling would be the correct word to use. How can we use the ego to destroy itself? How frustrating? Can a shadow destroy itself? Step back from the shadow, see it for what it is. This very moment, when we are aware of the sensations of our bodies, our minds. How can the ego possibly exist in this moment? In this moment, with awareness, *we* are in control. When awareness is lost, the moment is lost and the ego grasps it to dwell on goals, past mistakes, future accomplishments. How sad to give up this moment of pure joy for a moment filled with useless, futile, ego-filled nonsense?
"Live unfettered by karmic chains?" We are life itself! How easy it is to give our life to the ego? Then life becomes something that we have rather than something that we are. To sacrifice our life to something that doesn't exist, a shadow? Isn't this total madness?
[QUOTE=Yoshiaki_Abe;351599]Others tend to gravitate towards the opposite path, in which we realize that we are what we have always been[/QUOTE]
The ego likes to discriminate -- this is better than that -- this is different. Does it really matter? Through investigation we can really see the nature of the ego, and the lies we tell ourselves and actually believe. Both the Tao Te Ching and Heart Sutra warn against this.
Mindfulness and insight (Vipassana) meditation is a practice of Buddhism. There is no opposite path - what else is there to do but realise? Some kind of goal for the ego? Mindfulness allows us to be in this moment, so the ego cannot grasp it. With mindfulness meditation we are given the tools to allow us to take back the moment. By applying this to each and every moment, when it becomes effortless - we are enlightened and the ego can no longer exist.
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Original post: Yoshiaki_Abe
[QUOTE=Qez;351783]There is no opposite path - what else is there to do but realise? [/QUOTE]
On this I certainly disagree, and I thought I outlined it clearly enough. Buddhists struggle to eliminate their egos and gain the ever-coveted nirvana. Others simply gain an understanding of who they are and learn to live that way, without elimination of the ego. If elimination of the ego were the only path, we would all be Buddhist, and yet, we are not. There is never just one path through anything.
[QUOTE=Qez;351783]There is no opposite path - what else is there to do but realise? [/QUOTE]
On this I certainly disagree, and I thought I outlined it clearly enough. Buddhists struggle to eliminate their egos and gain the ever-coveted nirvana. Others simply gain an understanding of who they are and learn to live that way, without elimination of the ego. If elimination of the ego were the only path, we would all be Buddhist, and yet, we are not. There is never just one path through anything.
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Original post: Qez
I was discussing this in another thread i.e. how the external manifestations differ only by the discriminate mind, but the essence of each path is the same.
Discussion on Hindu vs. Buddhist mantras
[QUOTE=Tao Te Ching]Always without desire we must be found,
If its deep mystery we would sound;
But if desire always within us be,
Its outer fringe is all that we shall see[/QUOTE]
Every phenomenal truth (e.g. Buddhism) has a public teaching i.e. its form, the thoughts and formalisation of the practice. Because we have desire, we can only see its "outer fringe". The public teaching are merely stepping stones, to an inward journey, not an end in themselves. Liken the ego to a candle flame and the true self to the sun. If you are the sun, what use is a candle flame? This is why I am observing that you can't truely know who you are "without elimination of the ego". It is upon the realisation of the true self that we realise that the ego, like all form, is empty.
Nirvana, God, whatever - they are all words with personal conceptualisations attached, and by allowing yourself to see this conceptualisation i.e. "the ever-coveted nirvana", as you say - this conceptualisation become unobtainable. This is why I like the word emptiness, it more difficult to define. I also like the phrase "Ehyeh asher Ehyeh" - I am what I am - the state of being is reflected and defined in terms of itself. "I am a Buddhist" - this is an illusion, you are who you are - can't argue with that!
I was discussing this in another thread i.e. how the external manifestations differ only by the discriminate mind, but the essence of each path is the same.
Discussion on Hindu vs. Buddhist mantras
[QUOTE=Tao Te Ching]Always without desire we must be found,
If its deep mystery we would sound;
But if desire always within us be,
Its outer fringe is all that we shall see[/QUOTE]
Every phenomenal truth (e.g. Buddhism) has a public teaching i.e. its form, the thoughts and formalisation of the practice. Because we have desire, we can only see its "outer fringe". The public teaching are merely stepping stones, to an inward journey, not an end in themselves. Liken the ego to a candle flame and the true self to the sun. If you are the sun, what use is a candle flame? This is why I am observing that you can't truely know who you are "without elimination of the ego". It is upon the realisation of the true self that we realise that the ego, like all form, is empty.
Nirvana, God, whatever - they are all words with personal conceptualisations attached, and by allowing yourself to see this conceptualisation i.e. "the ever-coveted nirvana", as you say - this conceptualisation become unobtainable. This is why I like the word emptiness, it more difficult to define. I also like the phrase "Ehyeh asher Ehyeh" - I am what I am - the state of being is reflected and defined in terms of itself. "I am a Buddhist" - this is an illusion, you are who you are - can't argue with that!
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Original post: simex
Qez,
Exactly!
Religions can have many similarities as well as differences. I think the important thing to know is that each religion is like a finger, pointing to something else. If you spend too much time examining the finger, you will fail to see where it is pointing. There are a lot of people who are "religious" but are concerned mostly with tradition and personal identity. These people tend to look at the finger only. The people who are genuine in their search for the truth eventually realize that, while the finger helped them to see the thing it was pointing to, it is not important in and of itself.
In my experience, most of the fingers are pointing to the same thing.
Qez,
Exactly!
Religions can have many similarities as well as differences. I think the important thing to know is that each religion is like a finger, pointing to something else. If you spend too much time examining the finger, you will fail to see where it is pointing. There are a lot of people who are "religious" but are concerned mostly with tradition and personal identity. These people tend to look at the finger only. The people who are genuine in their search for the truth eventually realize that, while the finger helped them to see the thing it was pointing to, it is not important in and of itself.
In my experience, most of the fingers are pointing to the same thing.
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Original post: durki
I see every thing as a subjective mental projection. A gross mind gets mired in the external nature. As mind becomes subtler, it extricates itself from the nuances of the tantalizing sensuous phenomena.
I see every thing as a subjective mental projection. A gross mind gets mired in the external nature. As mind becomes subtler, it extricates itself from the nuances of the tantalizing sensuous phenomena.