Original post: Venefica
In many Taoist legends physical immortality play an important part. Not immortality of the Spirit like in many religions, well that to, but physical immortality, extending life beyond the max 100, give or take, mostly take a few decades of human life, perhaps extending it forever. What are your ideas around this. Do you think it just metaphor, or is is possible to extend human life span or even life forever whit the wisdom of Taoism.
Also why is this particular thing, immortality, so often seen as evil by other cultures or religions. Just say somewhere you wish for physical immortality and you are seen as a horrible person, so accepted and indeed revered in Taoism?
Taoism and immortality
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
Taoism and immortality
Original post: VERTIGO
Taoist's wiev on Immortality has a lot to do with the philosophical side: you can become physically immortal, but to do it you must flow with the Tao.
The basical concept is the fact that one ages etc etc only beacouse he tries to RESIST things, to resist what'0s irresistible, and in so doing he wastes energy.
Make no resistance and you'll be strong as the tao itself, surrender yourself to IT and everything in the world will surrender to you.
I know i'm not really clear, but it's beacouse it's hard to me to explain it in a foreign language.
However, check "The Secret of the Golden Flower" out.
as for why fisical immortality is considered a BAD thing in most places in the world, it's just beacouse most religious paradigms in the world see The Phisical World as divided, separated from the Spiritual one.
In Taoism such a difference doesn't exist: the Tao is the divine principle that's behind both matter and spirit, there's no difference between the two.
Taoist's wiev on Immortality has a lot to do with the philosophical side: you can become physically immortal, but to do it you must flow with the Tao.
The basical concept is the fact that one ages etc etc only beacouse he tries to RESIST things, to resist what'0s irresistible, and in so doing he wastes energy.
Make no resistance and you'll be strong as the tao itself, surrender yourself to IT and everything in the world will surrender to you.
I know i'm not really clear, but it's beacouse it's hard to me to explain it in a foreign language.
However, check "The Secret of the Golden Flower" out.
as for why fisical immortality is considered a BAD thing in most places in the world, it's just beacouse most religious paradigms in the world see The Phisical World as divided, separated from the Spiritual one.
In Taoism such a difference doesn't exist: the Tao is the divine principle that's behind both matter and spirit, there's no difference between the two.
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
Taoism and immortality
Original post: Venefica
I understand some of what you are saying, I understand the concept at least but I am unsure of how to implement it into one's life. Is by the way The Secret of the Golden Flower a book? And do amazon have it? Also may I ask what language is your native one?
I understand some of what you are saying, I understand the concept at least but I am unsure of how to implement it into one's life. Is by the way The Secret of the Golden Flower a book? And do amazon have it? Also may I ask what language is your native one?
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
Taoism and immortality
Original post: VERTIGO
First of all: yeah The Secret of the Golden Flower is a book (it's considered one of the gratest surviving texts of taoist internal alchemy and esoterical qigong) but i don't know if amazon carries it.
To live the tao it's important to:
1- do lots and lots of qigong exercises, to strenghten your body and tune your mind to it (it's also a good idea to train in a martial art, expecially if Internal like Taiji Quan)
2- train yourself to reach a mindstate of detachement not so different from the bhuddist one, but not so extreme: ego destruction is not so vital, what's important here is ego's reconciliation with his source
as for me, i'm italian
First of all: yeah The Secret of the Golden Flower is a book (it's considered one of the gratest surviving texts of taoist internal alchemy and esoterical qigong) but i don't know if amazon carries it.
To live the tao it's important to:
1- do lots and lots of qigong exercises, to strenghten your body and tune your mind to it (it's also a good idea to train in a martial art, expecially if Internal like Taiji Quan)
2- train yourself to reach a mindstate of detachement not so different from the bhuddist one, but not so extreme: ego destruction is not so vital, what's important here is ego's reconciliation with his source
as for me, i'm italian
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
Taoism and immortality
Original post: Frater Mugen
The search for immortality by Chinese immortalists and magicians predates Daoism, but later became absorbed into Daoist tradition. The Way of Magic and Immortality (Fang Xian Dao 方仙道; this term was first used in the Records of the Historian to refer to it after the fact) was practiced by magicians and immortalists during the Eastern Zhou (770-221 BCE during the Spring and Autumn period and the Warring States period). To put this in perspective with Daoism, the Daodejing might have been written around the 3rd or 4th century, but the dating of the Daodejing is subject to debate and Laozi is traditionally seen as a older contemporary of Kong Fuzi (Confucius 551BCE-479BCE). Then, I believe the first two real Daoist religious movements arose in the 2nd century CE, the Way of the Heavenly Masters and the Yellow Turbans (Way of Supreme Peace).
The idea of physical immortality is present as you say, and though I believe that the longevity techniques found in Daoism can be quite effective I have trouble accepting literal physical immortality. It wasn't uncommon for Immortals to be thought of as living apart from normal human society, sometimes living on some mystical island out in the sea that may come and go and such. There were also a lot of failures by alchemists trying to make elixers of immortality that actually ended up poisoning them and their patrons to death.
In later developments of Daoism came the concept of Divine Immortals who are really what could be thought of as divinities or deities. An adept can, in cultivating the Dao, join the ranks of the Immortals once they have united with the Dao. So, in Daoism you at once unite with the Dao and become a god. In some beliefs of the immortals some can ascend to this level in their very body, but most that can reach the level of Immortal do so after the death of their physical body. Daoist Immortals are emanations of the Vital Breath of the Dao.
I do not have the Vital Breath of the Dao condensed within me so that I realize Dao-nature (道性 Daoxing), nor do I know any Daoists who have achieved this oneness with the Dao, so I cannot comment if once you return to the Dao that you can extend your physical life indefinitely or will yourself to leave this physical incarnation upon reaching the level of Immortal. I find the interpretation of Daoist Immortality as a sort of enlightenment in which you no longer have to be reborn and can join the ranks of Daoist Immortals in which you one with and in constant communion with the Dao, an emanation of its Vital Breath. Similar to Bodhisattvas, I think Daoist Immortals could also choose how they manifest themselves in order to help people whenever needed.
As for why the idea of immortality is accepted in Chinese religion... personally I simply see it as a unique cultural development. That is like asking why any differences exist across cultures. By carefully analyzing Chinese history, culture, and the development of the idea of immortality and the tradition of the immortalists you might be able to determine why this is so when comparing it to other cultures' opinions on immortality. Unfortunately I cannot say I have the knowledge to give you a complete answer. My incomplete answer is that in many other cultures that immortality is considered it is seen as being a matter of greed and selfishness, perhaps a perversion of nature or going against the divine order, or perhaps seen as spitting in the Divine's face (perhaps it is also seen you must leave your physical body to ultimately return to the Divine). I am not sure what the original Immortalists believed, but in Daoism Immortality is achieved once you have become one with the Dao. So, from a Daoist perspective, there is nothing wrong with immortality because you are returning to the natural state of unity with the Dao.
(EDIT:
Though Daoist internal alchemy is the most well known method to achieve Immortality, you can also achieve immortality through combining the microcosm with the macrocosm through use of mystical means of spiritual travel to the celestial realms. But to do this in a Daoist fashion would require someone to teach you Shangqing mystical Daoism or something along those lines. Just doing a lot of qigong might be great for your health and give you longevity, but unless you know the alchemical processes you probably won't achieve Daoist Immortality.
The Secret of the Golden Flower should be available through Amazon. Most commonly for English translation there is the new Cleary translation and the older Wilhelm translation. There may be a translation in your native language as well.)
The search for immortality by Chinese immortalists and magicians predates Daoism, but later became absorbed into Daoist tradition. The Way of Magic and Immortality (Fang Xian Dao 方仙道; this term was first used in the Records of the Historian to refer to it after the fact) was practiced by magicians and immortalists during the Eastern Zhou (770-221 BCE during the Spring and Autumn period and the Warring States period). To put this in perspective with Daoism, the Daodejing might have been written around the 3rd or 4th century, but the dating of the Daodejing is subject to debate and Laozi is traditionally seen as a older contemporary of Kong Fuzi (Confucius 551BCE-479BCE). Then, I believe the first two real Daoist religious movements arose in the 2nd century CE, the Way of the Heavenly Masters and the Yellow Turbans (Way of Supreme Peace).
The idea of physical immortality is present as you say, and though I believe that the longevity techniques found in Daoism can be quite effective I have trouble accepting literal physical immortality. It wasn't uncommon for Immortals to be thought of as living apart from normal human society, sometimes living on some mystical island out in the sea that may come and go and such. There were also a lot of failures by alchemists trying to make elixers of immortality that actually ended up poisoning them and their patrons to death.
In later developments of Daoism came the concept of Divine Immortals who are really what could be thought of as divinities or deities. An adept can, in cultivating the Dao, join the ranks of the Immortals once they have united with the Dao. So, in Daoism you at once unite with the Dao and become a god. In some beliefs of the immortals some can ascend to this level in their very body, but most that can reach the level of Immortal do so after the death of their physical body. Daoist Immortals are emanations of the Vital Breath of the Dao.
I do not have the Vital Breath of the Dao condensed within me so that I realize Dao-nature (道性 Daoxing), nor do I know any Daoists who have achieved this oneness with the Dao, so I cannot comment if once you return to the Dao that you can extend your physical life indefinitely or will yourself to leave this physical incarnation upon reaching the level of Immortal. I find the interpretation of Daoist Immortality as a sort of enlightenment in which you no longer have to be reborn and can join the ranks of Daoist Immortals in which you one with and in constant communion with the Dao, an emanation of its Vital Breath. Similar to Bodhisattvas, I think Daoist Immortals could also choose how they manifest themselves in order to help people whenever needed.
As for why the idea of immortality is accepted in Chinese religion... personally I simply see it as a unique cultural development. That is like asking why any differences exist across cultures. By carefully analyzing Chinese history, culture, and the development of the idea of immortality and the tradition of the immortalists you might be able to determine why this is so when comparing it to other cultures' opinions on immortality. Unfortunately I cannot say I have the knowledge to give you a complete answer. My incomplete answer is that in many other cultures that immortality is considered it is seen as being a matter of greed and selfishness, perhaps a perversion of nature or going against the divine order, or perhaps seen as spitting in the Divine's face (perhaps it is also seen you must leave your physical body to ultimately return to the Divine). I am not sure what the original Immortalists believed, but in Daoism Immortality is achieved once you have become one with the Dao. So, from a Daoist perspective, there is nothing wrong with immortality because you are returning to the natural state of unity with the Dao.
(EDIT:
I saw your post after I posted mine, though I suggested it too you said it very clearly, good point.as for why fisical immortality is considered a BAD thing in most places in the world, it's just beacouse most religious paradigms in the world see The Phisical World as divided, separated from the Spiritual one.
In Taoism such a difference doesn't exist: the Tao is the divine principle that's behind both matter and spirit, there's no difference between the two.
Though Daoist internal alchemy is the most well known method to achieve Immortality, you can also achieve immortality through combining the microcosm with the macrocosm through use of mystical means of spiritual travel to the celestial realms. But to do this in a Daoist fashion would require someone to teach you Shangqing mystical Daoism or something along those lines. Just doing a lot of qigong might be great for your health and give you longevity, but unless you know the alchemical processes you probably won't achieve Daoist Immortality.
The Secret of the Golden Flower should be available through Amazon. Most commonly for English translation there is the new Cleary translation and the older Wilhelm translation. There may be a translation in your native language as well.)
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
Taoism and immortality
Original post: VERTIGO
good point(S).
I don't see phisical immortality really troublesome conceptually speaking beacouse the difference between body and consciousness sorts of fades when you're really into chinese mysticism, i often experienced this with martial arts.
Thus if the spirit and the body becomes one with the Dao wich is eternal...
Well it may also be that's an over-semplification but that's what i tought reading the Flower.
Also, what you say about reaching unity with the dao only after one's physical death is often true, again over semplification on my part
good point(S).
I don't see phisical immortality really troublesome conceptually speaking beacouse the difference between body and consciousness sorts of fades when you're really into chinese mysticism, i often experienced this with martial arts.
Thus if the spirit and the body becomes one with the Dao wich is eternal...
Well it may also be that's an over-semplification but that's what i tought reading the Flower.
Also, what you say about reaching unity with the dao only after one's physical death is often true, again over semplification on my part
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
Taoism and immortality
Original post: Jenfucius
At one time external alchemy was practiced in ancient China but later fell out of favour to more Internal systems of alchemy. Although there seems to be a mixture of the two.
Various herbs and minerals are still used by some Taoist schools though.
The ideals of longevity is pretty much ingrain with Chinese society and as Frater Mugen has said its an interesting cultural development.
To become immortal is to become one with the "Tao". (That is to go back to one's original true nature).
At one time external alchemy was practiced in ancient China but later fell out of favour to more Internal systems of alchemy. Although there seems to be a mixture of the two.
Various herbs and minerals are still used by some Taoist schools though.
The ideals of longevity is pretty much ingrain with Chinese society and as Frater Mugen has said its an interesting cultural development.
To become immortal is to become one with the "Tao". (That is to go back to one's original true nature).
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
Taoism and immortality
Original post: VERTIGO
[QUOTE=Frater Mugen;313549]Just doing a lot of qigong might be great for your health and give you longevity, but unless you know the alchemical processes you probably won't achieve Daoist Immortality.
[/QUOTE]
obviously simple qigong is the first step, but you can't build a palace withouth some fndations
[QUOTE=Frater Mugen;313549]Just doing a lot of qigong might be great for your health and give you longevity, but unless you know the alchemical processes you probably won't achieve Daoist Immortality.
[/QUOTE]
obviously simple qigong is the first step, but you can't build a palace withouth some fndations
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
Taoism and immortality
Original post: Venefica
Thank you Vertigo for your advice and the rest of you for your replies.
I have one read that some Taoists saw physical immortality as desirable as they saw the mind, the body and the Spirit as equally important. They also saw that in a person the three made something more than the sum of its parts, and in death the parts separated and as such something vital was lost, so the ideal was to live forever to preserve the unique blend of mind, body and Soul.
Thank you Vertigo for your advice and the rest of you for your replies.
I have one read that some Taoists saw physical immortality as desirable as they saw the mind, the body and the Spirit as equally important. They also saw that in a person the three made something more than the sum of its parts, and in death the parts separated and as such something vital was lost, so the ideal was to live forever to preserve the unique blend of mind, body and Soul.
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
Taoism and immortality
Original post: Frater Mugen
[QUOTE=Venefica;313590]
I have one read that some Taoists saw physical immortality as desirable as they saw the mind, the body and the Spirit as equally important. They also saw that in a person the three made something more than the sum of its parts, and in death the parts separated and as such something vital was lost, so the ideal was to live forever to preserve the unique blend of mind, body and Soul.[/QUOTE]
That's an interesting way to look at it. It makes sense that some schools of Daoist thought would develop that theory. There are various perspectives on immortality that developed as time passed and varied between schools. In Shangqing mystical Daoism, I believe the idea is to eventually ascend from the mortal realm to reside as an immortal in the Pure Realms (probably the High Pure Realm, but maybe you can refine yourself to advance to the other Pure Realms). Such techniques as maintaining the deities that reside in the body, absorbing the essence of the celestial bodies, and travelling to the celestial realms are prevalent in this style of Daoism. Personally the idea of physical immortality doesn't appeal to me too much, so maybe that is one reason why I'm biased against it. Longevity and in particular good all around health are excellent benefits to Daoist longevity techniques though.
[QUOTE=VERTIGO;313564]obviously simple qigong is the first step, but you can't build a palace withouth some fndations[/QUOTE]I completely agree. I should have explained myself better when I posted that reply. I posted that thinking that some people who have little knowledge of qigong might get confused. I mean that qigong is a fairly broad category of practices and if one were to utilize qigong on the path to Immortality, the complete internal alchemical process is something to look into. Though, when I originally posted I made some assumptions I shouldn't have anyway so it was probably unclear.
[QUOTE=Venefica;313590]
I have one read that some Taoists saw physical immortality as desirable as they saw the mind, the body and the Spirit as equally important. They also saw that in a person the three made something more than the sum of its parts, and in death the parts separated and as such something vital was lost, so the ideal was to live forever to preserve the unique blend of mind, body and Soul.[/QUOTE]
That's an interesting way to look at it. It makes sense that some schools of Daoist thought would develop that theory. There are various perspectives on immortality that developed as time passed and varied between schools. In Shangqing mystical Daoism, I believe the idea is to eventually ascend from the mortal realm to reside as an immortal in the Pure Realms (probably the High Pure Realm, but maybe you can refine yourself to advance to the other Pure Realms). Such techniques as maintaining the deities that reside in the body, absorbing the essence of the celestial bodies, and travelling to the celestial realms are prevalent in this style of Daoism. Personally the idea of physical immortality doesn't appeal to me too much, so maybe that is one reason why I'm biased against it. Longevity and in particular good all around health are excellent benefits to Daoist longevity techniques though.
[QUOTE=VERTIGO;313564]obviously simple qigong is the first step, but you can't build a palace withouth some fndations[/QUOTE]I completely agree. I should have explained myself better when I posted that reply. I posted that thinking that some people who have little knowledge of qigong might get confused. I mean that qigong is a fairly broad category of practices and if one were to utilize qigong on the path to Immortality, the complete internal alchemical process is something to look into. Though, when I originally posted I made some assumptions I shouldn't have anyway so it was probably unclear.
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
Taoism and immortality
Original post: Venefica
Perhaps one can direct it in the way one want. Like paths I mean. Whit those that think Physical immortality is the thing to go for can go down that path and those that want to sort of merge whit their Spirit and have a Spiritual immortality can take that path. I mean not every path can be right for all pepole.
How much can one gain in the way of extended life by Taoist longevity work?
Perhaps one can direct it in the way one want. Like paths I mean. Whit those that think Physical immortality is the thing to go for can go down that path and those that want to sort of merge whit their Spirit and have a Spiritual immortality can take that path. I mean not every path can be right for all pepole.
How much can one gain in the way of extended life by Taoist longevity work?
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
Taoism and immortality
Original post: VERTIGO
there are lot of proofs of taoist martial arts masters 110-120 years old, in good shape and with only few white hairs.
They however tend to die not so much time after 115.
However to reach 115 without senility and senility-related diseases and still be such a good shape to probably plaster a much younger martial artist (and/or general pratictioner) it's a awesome result on it's own.
Also one can probably accomplice a lot more with some scientific help and/or techniques from other paradigms.
Obviously, that's if you don't manage to reach the oneness.
there are lot of proofs of taoist martial arts masters 110-120 years old, in good shape and with only few white hairs.
They however tend to die not so much time after 115.
However to reach 115 without senility and senility-related diseases and still be such a good shape to probably plaster a much younger martial artist (and/or general pratictioner) it's a awesome result on it's own.
Also one can probably accomplice a lot more with some scientific help and/or techniques from other paradigms.
Obviously, that's if you don't manage to reach the oneness.
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
Taoism and immortality
Original post: Draginvry
[QUOTE=VERTIGO;313767]
However to reach 115 without senility and senility-related diseases and still be such a good shape to probably plaster a much younger martial artist (and/or general pratictioner) it's a awesome result on it's own.[/QUOTE]
I remember seeing this guy when I was at college. He looked to be in his 70's. He would run around the campus doing The Flag and other physical feats, most of which I can't even do, and I practice parkour.
I'm not sure what paradigms or practices he used, but the guy looked ten times fitter than the people at the gym who were only half his age.
There's something to be said about finding peace and true wisdom. Even though nobody is proven to be immortal, there are people out there who live almost twice as long as the average person, and they are mostly free from common ailments as well.
I remember watching Is It Real on television one time. They had an episode about claimed superhuman powers. This one guy could stick a metal rod through his arm without even flinching. When they took him to the scientists, they recorded his pain tolerance to be twenty times greater than the average man, just by working himself into a trance.
[QUOTE=VERTIGO;313767]
However to reach 115 without senility and senility-related diseases and still be such a good shape to probably plaster a much younger martial artist (and/or general pratictioner) it's a awesome result on it's own.[/QUOTE]
I remember seeing this guy when I was at college. He looked to be in his 70's. He would run around the campus doing The Flag and other physical feats, most of which I can't even do, and I practice parkour.
I'm not sure what paradigms or practices he used, but the guy looked ten times fitter than the people at the gym who were only half his age.
There's something to be said about finding peace and true wisdom. Even though nobody is proven to be immortal, there are people out there who live almost twice as long as the average person, and they are mostly free from common ailments as well.
I remember watching Is It Real on television one time. They had an episode about claimed superhuman powers. This one guy could stick a metal rod through his arm without even flinching. When they took him to the scientists, they recorded his pain tolerance to be twenty times greater than the average man, just by working himself into a trance.
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
Taoism and immortality
Original post: HoneyBeard
[QUOTE=Venefica;313716]Perhaps one can direct it in the way one want. Like paths I mean. Whit those that think Physical immortality is the thing to go for can go down that path and those that want to sort of merge whit their Spirit and have a Spiritual immortality can take that path. I mean not every path can be right for all pepole.
How much can one gain in the way of extended life by Taoist longevity work?[/QUOTE]
Depends entirely on karma & heritage, understanding, trial & character;
Some have extended there already frail and exhausted lifestyle to span of only, say, seventy years; This is no more, even less, than our average luck.
Others protest life may be extended beyond three hundred, even three thousand years; men such who, these saying pass, again, died earlier than others have enjoyed; others more fortunate to bear worldy existence.
It may be said, the value of life is itself, but we cherish our vulnerable nature; This is why most masters adopt a protege, a prophet as it were, to substitute their own 'way';
You see, though you may by fortune, or premise fall into favour of physical immortality, you shall either find silence is lonely, or talk is cheap and ears are ignorant; A longer life to live amongst ignorant vanity, and outside the circle of falsehood.....What can they say...Life with you is no enjoyment, and you make no effort to either adopt or abandon vice or virtue, with you still here, I cannot be, I go. Till others are ready to endure torment and submit to failure, then they'll be spared judgement, only debt can afford the years you require to answer, what the fuck just happened?.
Some bear it for only a few hours, others, seventy years, Some...one hundred and sixty, and there are others still who have forgotten time as a principle and have came from out the worlds we now rewrite, the hobo filled with anger that london was not so, or italy had no child.
one, two, three, four....hundred...or thousand, how much can one man bear alone!?
As for those fucking buddhists....They're greatest died. They should all value themselves, their egos, everything that is, that is not him, he is now dead, was once dead, and forever more. He who was.
Despite my shallow exploration of their ways, my disgust is fuelled only from their ineptitude.
I figure ...hmmmmm 134 years. Pigs.
[QUOTE=Venefica;313716]Perhaps one can direct it in the way one want. Like paths I mean. Whit those that think Physical immortality is the thing to go for can go down that path and those that want to sort of merge whit their Spirit and have a Spiritual immortality can take that path. I mean not every path can be right for all pepole.
How much can one gain in the way of extended life by Taoist longevity work?[/QUOTE]
Depends entirely on karma & heritage, understanding, trial & character;
Some have extended there already frail and exhausted lifestyle to span of only, say, seventy years; This is no more, even less, than our average luck.
Others protest life may be extended beyond three hundred, even three thousand years; men such who, these saying pass, again, died earlier than others have enjoyed; others more fortunate to bear worldy existence.
It may be said, the value of life is itself, but we cherish our vulnerable nature; This is why most masters adopt a protege, a prophet as it were, to substitute their own 'way';
You see, though you may by fortune, or premise fall into favour of physical immortality, you shall either find silence is lonely, or talk is cheap and ears are ignorant; A longer life to live amongst ignorant vanity, and outside the circle of falsehood.....What can they say...Life with you is no enjoyment, and you make no effort to either adopt or abandon vice or virtue, with you still here, I cannot be, I go. Till others are ready to endure torment and submit to failure, then they'll be spared judgement, only debt can afford the years you require to answer, what the fuck just happened?.
Some bear it for only a few hours, others, seventy years, Some...one hundred and sixty, and there are others still who have forgotten time as a principle and have came from out the worlds we now rewrite, the hobo filled with anger that london was not so, or italy had no child.
one, two, three, four....hundred...or thousand, how much can one man bear alone!?
As for those fucking buddhists....They're greatest died. They should all value themselves, their egos, everything that is, that is not him, he is now dead, was once dead, and forever more. He who was.
Despite my shallow exploration of their ways, my disgust is fuelled only from their ineptitude.
I figure ...hmmmmm 134 years. Pigs.
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
Taoism and immortality
Original post: EtuMalku
I have a quick question if you would, I remember reading the Tao Te Ching and a book by Chuang Tze(?). But I don't recall much mysticism in those books? Could you guys point me in the direction of a few books that deal with Taoist mysticism?
I have a quick question if you would, I remember reading the Tao Te Ching and a book by Chuang Tze(?). But I don't recall much mysticism in those books? Could you guys point me in the direction of a few books that deal with Taoist mysticism?
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
Taoism and immortality
Original post: HoneyBeard
What are you looking for?
LOL
What are you looking for?
LOL-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
Taoism and immortality
Original post: Venefica
HoneyBeard I am not sure I understood your post. Could you explain what you meant. I am sorry, but I am from Norway, there may be a language barrier.
HoneyBeard I am not sure I understood your post. Could you explain what you meant. I am sorry, but I am from Norway, there may be a language barrier.
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
Taoism and immortality
Original post: HoneyBeard
How many years? As many as you think you can survive.
Most men can't even live 70, as a normal individual.
Life and Death...complicated.
How many years? As many as you think you can survive.
Most men can't even live 70, as a normal individual.
Life and Death...complicated.
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
Taoism and immortality
Original post: Draginvry
Sri Hira Ratan Manek is reported to have become a breatharian for long stretches of his life by using ancient sunyogi techniques from the Jains and ancient Egyptians, such the he no longer requires the consuption of food for sustenance. Whether or not you believe him is another matter. He seems reasonably intelligent and capable to me, but then again I've never spoken to the man in person, just in online discussions.
However, I seem to have lost the link to his discussion board, and his main page doesn't really have much in the way of mysticism. Wikipedia might get you started, if you want some basic info on Jain mysticism.
I believe most of the Taoist mysticism was actually borrowed from Jainism. Jains had many beliefs about things like longevity, death, freedom from the physical world, and similar topics. You might want to look into that instead.EtuMalku;313816 wrote:I have a quick question if you would, I remember reading the Tao Te Ching and a book by Chuang Tze(?). But I don't recall much mysticism in those books? Could you guys point me in the direction of a few books that deal with Taoist mysticism?
Sri Hira Ratan Manek is reported to have become a breatharian for long stretches of his life by using ancient sunyogi techniques from the Jains and ancient Egyptians, such the he no longer requires the consuption of food for sustenance. Whether or not you believe him is another matter. He seems reasonably intelligent and capable to me, but then again I've never spoken to the man in person, just in online discussions.
However, I seem to have lost the link to his discussion board, and his main page doesn't really have much in the way of mysticism. Wikipedia might get you started, if you want some basic info on Jain mysticism.
Not really. Death is caused by minding death rather than life. The only reason immortality isn't prolific is because most of the people who have mastered death have moved on to other modes of existence. Presumably it is because there are much more interesting places to be in this universe than the third rock from Sol.Life and Death...complicated.
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
Taoism and immortality
Original post: EtuMalku
Thank you Draginvry :p
Thank you Draginvry :p
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
Taoism and immortality
Original post: Frater Mugen
[QUOTE=Draginvry;313832]I believe most of the Taoist mysticism was actually borrowed from Jainism. Jains had many beliefs about things like longevity, death, freedom from the physical world, and similar topics.[/QUOTE]I am interested in knowing on what grounds can you make that statement, do you have any historical evidence for exchanging of ideas between Jains and Daoists or other Chinese groups that later influenced Daoist movements? How much impact Jainism had on Chinese religion is definitely something I'd like to know more about since I'm not aware of it, however I am unsure if I would go so far as to say that Daoist mysticism is borrowed from Jainism.
You would convince me if you can prove several of the following;
1) Prove that abstaining from the five grains practiced by Daoists is from Jainism
2) Prove that star stepping patterns and similar sacred dances are rooted in Jainism. This is probably not possible to prove as star stepping patterns is believed to originate form the Pace of Yu, which originates from the semi-legendary and prehistoric Xia dynasty (c. 2070 BCE - 1600 BCE)
3) Prove that journeying to the underworld and the celestial realms is from Jainism, again, this is probably not the case as these practices probably originate from Daoist shamanism that almost certainly predates Jainism
4) Prove that the Chinese ideas of spirits and deities residing the microcosm of the body is from Jainism. This idea became important to Shangqing mystical Daoists.
5) That absorbing the essence of the celestial bodies (such as the Sun and Moon), sucking dew, and so forth come from Jainism.
6) That ideas such as holding fast to the one or storing the vital essence of all things in one's chest comes from Jainism.
7) That the original Daoist attitude of separating oneself from the complications of culturally constructed society in favor of a simple life is from Jainism.
That there is the concept of wu wei in Jainism and it was transmitted directly from Jainism into Daoism
9) Explain how the pre-Daoist idea of immortalism in China comes from Jainism.
I'm ignorant of Jain mysticism, so I am seriously asking if you can give examples of how Jain and Daoist mysticism are similar. As you can probably tell I am full of doubt, but if you can back up your claim I would be most appreciative. And at the least I'll hopefully come out knowing more about Jainsim
[QUOTE=Draginvry;313832]I believe most of the Taoist mysticism was actually borrowed from Jainism. Jains had many beliefs about things like longevity, death, freedom from the physical world, and similar topics.[/QUOTE]I am interested in knowing on what grounds can you make that statement, do you have any historical evidence for exchanging of ideas between Jains and Daoists or other Chinese groups that later influenced Daoist movements? How much impact Jainism had on Chinese religion is definitely something I'd like to know more about since I'm not aware of it, however I am unsure if I would go so far as to say that Daoist mysticism is borrowed from Jainism.
You would convince me if you can prove several of the following;
1) Prove that abstaining from the five grains practiced by Daoists is from Jainism
2) Prove that star stepping patterns and similar sacred dances are rooted in Jainism. This is probably not possible to prove as star stepping patterns is believed to originate form the Pace of Yu, which originates from the semi-legendary and prehistoric Xia dynasty (c. 2070 BCE - 1600 BCE)
3) Prove that journeying to the underworld and the celestial realms is from Jainism, again, this is probably not the case as these practices probably originate from Daoist shamanism that almost certainly predates Jainism
4) Prove that the Chinese ideas of spirits and deities residing the microcosm of the body is from Jainism. This idea became important to Shangqing mystical Daoists.
5) That absorbing the essence of the celestial bodies (such as the Sun and Moon), sucking dew, and so forth come from Jainism.
6) That ideas such as holding fast to the one or storing the vital essence of all things in one's chest comes from Jainism.
7) That the original Daoist attitude of separating oneself from the complications of culturally constructed society in favor of a simple life is from Jainism.
That there is the concept of wu wei in Jainism and it was transmitted directly from Jainism into Daoism9) Explain how the pre-Daoist idea of immortalism in China comes from Jainism.
I'm ignorant of Jain mysticism, so I am seriously asking if you can give examples of how Jain and Daoist mysticism are similar. As you can probably tell I am full of doubt, but if you can back up your claim I would be most appreciative. And at the least I'll hopefully come out knowing more about Jainsim
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
Taoism and immortality
Original post: Draginvry
Secondly, at least six of the nine points you listed can't be proven to come directly from Jainism, as they are also present in religions just as old, or societies in which Jainism was unlikely to have a large influence, with only moderate differences in actual practice. For example, the ancient Greeks had the concept of sophrosyne, which is very similar to wu wei. But it can hardly be proven that the Greeks nor the Chinese nor the Indians came up with the idea first. It is more likely that it is just an efficient way of living, and each socieity figured it out on their own, and came up with their own understanding of what it meant.
Lastly, I do not intend to prove anything to you. I can only present information based on my own research and experience. But, I know that those, who don't have such experience, will not understand me. Even more, there will be people, who will say, that what I say is not true, and they will ask for a proof. How am I going to give them a proof of all that I've experienced? They don't have such experience, they haven't opened themselves for it because they've decided to only look and listen to my information. I know that they are not able to understand me, that's why I don't intend to convince them or, all the more, to prove them anything. I can give them just information, and they, if they decide so, can experience them by themselves, so they can use the information to experience the universe as they see fit. Or they can say, that's hogwash, and not study or experience the information as they choose, or gain the knowledge that they wish to know.
I have no such historical evidence. The opinion was formed mostly based on similarities between the philosophies. I summized that it was statistically likely during ancient history that there was an exchange of ideas between Indian philosophies and the Chinese based on correlations between certain types of beliefs and geographical proximity.Frater Mugen;314019 wrote:I am interested in knowing on what grounds can you make that statement, do you have any historical evidence for exchanging of ideas between Jains and Daoists or other Chinese groups that later influenced Daoist movements?
First of all, most of the practices you listed aren't Jain per se, but may have been influenced by Jainism, similar to how contemporary christianity has been influenced by new thought movements over the centuries.You would convince me if you can prove several of the following
Secondly, at least six of the nine points you listed can't be proven to come directly from Jainism, as they are also present in religions just as old, or societies in which Jainism was unlikely to have a large influence, with only moderate differences in actual practice. For example, the ancient Greeks had the concept of sophrosyne, which is very similar to wu wei. But it can hardly be proven that the Greeks nor the Chinese nor the Indians came up with the idea first. It is more likely that it is just an efficient way of living, and each socieity figured it out on their own, and came up with their own understanding of what it meant.
Lastly, I do not intend to prove anything to you. I can only present information based on my own research and experience. But, I know that those, who don't have such experience, will not understand me. Even more, there will be people, who will say, that what I say is not true, and they will ask for a proof. How am I going to give them a proof of all that I've experienced? They don't have such experience, they haven't opened themselves for it because they've decided to only look and listen to my information. I know that they are not able to understand me, that's why I don't intend to convince them or, all the more, to prove them anything. I can give them just information, and they, if they decide so, can experience them by themselves, so they can use the information to experience the universe as they see fit. Or they can say, that's hogwash, and not study or experience the information as they choose, or gain the knowledge that they wish to know.
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
Taoism and immortality
Original post: Venefica
For me I got interested in longevity and the quest for immortality when I was 2 years old. I used to play alchemist and mad scientist in my room, putting out salt solutions for flies to eat when I was a little girl so it is a lifelong passion to achieve this, that is the main reason for my interest in Taoism.
For me I got interested in longevity and the quest for immortality when I was 2 years old. I used to play alchemist and mad scientist in my room, putting out salt solutions for flies to eat when I was a little girl so it is a lifelong passion to achieve this, that is the main reason for my interest in Taoism.
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
Taoism and immortality
Original post: Frater Mugen
[QUOTE=Draginvry;314046]I have no such historical evidence. The opinion was formed mostly based on similarities between the philosophies. I summized that it was statistically likely during ancient history that there was an exchange of ideas between Indian philosophies and the Chinese based on correlations between certain types of beliefs and geographical proximity.[/quote]Good point, good point, and that is indeed why I also believe it would be strange that there wasn't exchange of ideas. However, for example, Buddhism's and Islam's interactions Chinese culture is well known, but I have not heard much of direct influence from, say, Jainism or Hinduism. However, as you say later in your post, there are many similarities between spiritual concepts and philosophies that cover various paths worldwide that developed independently. So, just because the philosophies are similar and there is some chance that they interact is, in my opinion, not enough to say that most of Daoist mysticism comes from Jainism. Though there may have been some exchange of ideas, based on what I know of Chinese religion I am of the opinion that a number of the ideas that later became incorporated in Daoist mysticism developed indigenously and had its root in the semi-legendary dynasty of Xia and the early dynasties of Shang and Zhou. Such ideas being travelling to the celestial realms, star stepping (also used for said travel), immortalism, the inception of the idea of Heaven in the Chinese context (Zhuangzi later equated "Heaven" to the way of Nature or the Dao), etc.
[QUOTE=Draginvry;314046]
First of all, most of the practices you listed aren't Jain per se, but may have been influenced by Jainism, similar to how contemporary christianity has been influenced by new thought movements over the centuries.
Secondly, at least six of the nine points you listed can't be proven to come directly from Jainism, as they are also present in religions just as old, or societies in which Jainism was unlikely to have a large influence, with only moderate differences in actual practice. For example, the ancient Greeks had the concept of sophrosyne, which is very similar to wu wei. But it can hardly be proven that the Greeks nor the Chinese nor the Indians came up with the idea first. It is more likely that it is just an efficient way of living, and each socieity figured it out on their own, and came up with their own understanding of what it meant.
Lastly, I do not intend to prove anything to you. I can only present information based on my own research and experience. But, I know that those, who don't have such experience, will not understand me. Even more, there will be people, who will say, that what I say is not true, and they will ask for a proof. How am I going to give them a proof of all that I've experienced? They don't have such experience, they haven't opened themselves for it because they've decided to only look and listen to my information. I know that they are not able to understand me, that's why I don't intend to convince them or, all the more, to prove them anything. I can give them just information, and they, if they decide so, can experience them by themselves, so they can use the information to experience the universe as they see fit. Or they can say, that's hogwash, and not study or experience the information as they choose, or gain the knowledge that they wish to know.[/QUOTE]All right, it is fine that you don't want to "prove" anything to me. You make a completely logical argument there, and me wanting "proof" was probably too strong a word and I apologize for its tone. I listed various points that are common ideas found in forms of Daoist mysticism, so I thought that that if "most of Taoist mysticism was borrowed from Jainism" then certainly you should be able to say how these or other common Daoist ideas could have come from Jainism. It is true, many aspects of Daoist mysticism can find similarities, though have its own unique flavor and specific differences, to various spiritual traditions from around the world that have no direct relation to it. I believe this is the case with many religions and spiritual traditions (in terms of there being general similarities that can be drawn), though in the end they each have fundamental differences, unique approaches, and individual perspectives.
We both agree that it seems likely that ideas from Jainism could have influenced Chinese thought, but though the many influences directly from Buddhism into Daoism is obvious and well known, I have not heard much of Jainism's influence and if there was a sect who became very involved in adapting Jain thinking, I have not heard of them and would like to know more. It is not that I want to necessarily discredit your opinion or to validate mine, it is just that the assertion that most of Daoist mysticism comes from Jainism is a significant one and I have my doubts about it based on my own knowledge and experience (just like your knowledge and experience seems to think it is the case). In my opinion, there is a lot of gravity behind asserting that one religions spiritual practices comes from another. People might read your assertion and think, "oh, well, Daoism doesn't really have its unique mysticism, and it comes from Jainism so I'll just go with that." I can't judge whether or not it is better off for them to look into Jainism, your advice might very well lead them down a spiritual path that fits them perfectly, but I felt it could create misconceptions if taken too literally.
You say you can only present information based on your own research and experience, and that is exactly what I wish you would do. That's fine if you think I'm just not putting effort to understand things or that I won't understand your knowledge and experience. Really my point is, it's not about you, me, or anyone else that might not understand you. Saying that Daoist mysticism comes from Jainism is a serious assertion, and I think it is disrespectful to the tradition and anyone who follows it if the opinion is just based on the fact that the countries happen to be nearby and the philosophies happen to be similar on some points. Though I know you weren't trying to be disrespectful, I feel that an assertion of such gravity should be given substantial evidence.
I am sorry if I was offensive in any way. I was thinking if you could give substantial evidence supporting it that would be fascinating, as I am not under the illusion that Daoism is "pure" or anything.
[QUOTE=Draginvry;314046]I have no such historical evidence. The opinion was formed mostly based on similarities between the philosophies. I summized that it was statistically likely during ancient history that there was an exchange of ideas between Indian philosophies and the Chinese based on correlations between certain types of beliefs and geographical proximity.[/quote]Good point, good point, and that is indeed why I also believe it would be strange that there wasn't exchange of ideas. However, for example, Buddhism's and Islam's interactions Chinese culture is well known, but I have not heard much of direct influence from, say, Jainism or Hinduism. However, as you say later in your post, there are many similarities between spiritual concepts and philosophies that cover various paths worldwide that developed independently. So, just because the philosophies are similar and there is some chance that they interact is, in my opinion, not enough to say that most of Daoist mysticism comes from Jainism. Though there may have been some exchange of ideas, based on what I know of Chinese religion I am of the opinion that a number of the ideas that later became incorporated in Daoist mysticism developed indigenously and had its root in the semi-legendary dynasty of Xia and the early dynasties of Shang and Zhou. Such ideas being travelling to the celestial realms, star stepping (also used for said travel), immortalism, the inception of the idea of Heaven in the Chinese context (Zhuangzi later equated "Heaven" to the way of Nature or the Dao), etc.
[QUOTE=Draginvry;314046]
First of all, most of the practices you listed aren't Jain per se, but may have been influenced by Jainism, similar to how contemporary christianity has been influenced by new thought movements over the centuries.
Secondly, at least six of the nine points you listed can't be proven to come directly from Jainism, as they are also present in religions just as old, or societies in which Jainism was unlikely to have a large influence, with only moderate differences in actual practice. For example, the ancient Greeks had the concept of sophrosyne, which is very similar to wu wei. But it can hardly be proven that the Greeks nor the Chinese nor the Indians came up with the idea first. It is more likely that it is just an efficient way of living, and each socieity figured it out on their own, and came up with their own understanding of what it meant.
Lastly, I do not intend to prove anything to you. I can only present information based on my own research and experience. But, I know that those, who don't have such experience, will not understand me. Even more, there will be people, who will say, that what I say is not true, and they will ask for a proof. How am I going to give them a proof of all that I've experienced? They don't have such experience, they haven't opened themselves for it because they've decided to only look and listen to my information. I know that they are not able to understand me, that's why I don't intend to convince them or, all the more, to prove them anything. I can give them just information, and they, if they decide so, can experience them by themselves, so they can use the information to experience the universe as they see fit. Or they can say, that's hogwash, and not study or experience the information as they choose, or gain the knowledge that they wish to know.[/QUOTE]All right, it is fine that you don't want to "prove" anything to me. You make a completely logical argument there, and me wanting "proof" was probably too strong a word and I apologize for its tone. I listed various points that are common ideas found in forms of Daoist mysticism, so I thought that that if "most of Taoist mysticism was borrowed from Jainism" then certainly you should be able to say how these or other common Daoist ideas could have come from Jainism. It is true, many aspects of Daoist mysticism can find similarities, though have its own unique flavor and specific differences, to various spiritual traditions from around the world that have no direct relation to it. I believe this is the case with many religions and spiritual traditions (in terms of there being general similarities that can be drawn), though in the end they each have fundamental differences, unique approaches, and individual perspectives.
We both agree that it seems likely that ideas from Jainism could have influenced Chinese thought, but though the many influences directly from Buddhism into Daoism is obvious and well known, I have not heard much of Jainism's influence and if there was a sect who became very involved in adapting Jain thinking, I have not heard of them and would like to know more. It is not that I want to necessarily discredit your opinion or to validate mine, it is just that the assertion that most of Daoist mysticism comes from Jainism is a significant one and I have my doubts about it based on my own knowledge and experience (just like your knowledge and experience seems to think it is the case). In my opinion, there is a lot of gravity behind asserting that one religions spiritual practices comes from another. People might read your assertion and think, "oh, well, Daoism doesn't really have its unique mysticism, and it comes from Jainism so I'll just go with that." I can't judge whether or not it is better off for them to look into Jainism, your advice might very well lead them down a spiritual path that fits them perfectly, but I felt it could create misconceptions if taken too literally.
You say you can only present information based on your own research and experience, and that is exactly what I wish you would do. That's fine if you think I'm just not putting effort to understand things or that I won't understand your knowledge and experience. Really my point is, it's not about you, me, or anyone else that might not understand you. Saying that Daoist mysticism comes from Jainism is a serious assertion, and I think it is disrespectful to the tradition and anyone who follows it if the opinion is just based on the fact that the countries happen to be nearby and the philosophies happen to be similar on some points. Though I know you weren't trying to be disrespectful, I feel that an assertion of such gravity should be given substantial evidence.
I am sorry if I was offensive in any way. I was thinking if you could give substantial evidence supporting it that would be fascinating, as I am not under the illusion that Daoism is "pure" or anything.
-
Occult Forum Archive
- Magister
- Posts: 287885
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:32 am
Taoism and immortality
Original post: Mephi_Faustus
[QUOTE=Venefica;314081]For me I got interested in longevity and the quest for immortality when I was 2 years old. I used to play alchemist and mad scientist in my room, putting out salt solutions for flies to eat when I was a little girl so it is a lifelong passion to achieve this, that is the main reason for my interest in Taoism.[/QUOTE]
yeah... while those two are argueing and comPLETEly ignoring your original question... you asked about longevity and immortality right?... My friend and i were summoning and questioning random deities and demons and i decided to call upon Xiwang Mu, the daoist goddess of immortality and when i asked her how to obtain her blessing, she said that you have to be able to summon and understand The Three Pure Ones, the essential creators of the universe, and once you've aligned yourself with the Dao enough to do that (my guess is about 95-100 percent so good luck) then you obtain the peach of immortality... um... i hope this helps...
[QUOTE=Venefica;314081]For me I got interested in longevity and the quest for immortality when I was 2 years old. I used to play alchemist and mad scientist in my room, putting out salt solutions for flies to eat when I was a little girl so it is a lifelong passion to achieve this, that is the main reason for my interest in Taoism.[/QUOTE]
yeah... while those two are argueing and comPLETEly ignoring your original question... you asked about longevity and immortality right?... My friend and i were summoning and questioning random deities and demons and i decided to call upon Xiwang Mu, the daoist goddess of immortality and when i asked her how to obtain her blessing, she said that you have to be able to summon and understand The Three Pure Ones, the essential creators of the universe, and once you've aligned yourself with the Dao enough to do that (my guess is about 95-100 percent so good luck) then you obtain the peach of immortality... um... i hope this helps...