Original post: VERTIGO
thnx bigjonmud
however i think that in every traditional and well organized martial arts school (beware of the japs, btw) and taoist temple of every chinatown around the western world you can find a little of what you search, Zanthetsoth
Taoism and immortality
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Original post: Frater Mugen
[QUOTE=VERTIGO;322496]thnx bigjonmud
however i think that in every traditional and well organized martial arts school (beware of the japs, btw) and taoist temple of every chinatown around the western world you can find a little of what you search, Zanthetsoth[/QUOTE]What's wrong with the Japanese, may I ask? Besides the fact that in relevance to this topic Japanese martial arts has more influence from Shinto and Buddhism than directly from Daoism. Though there is something in Japan called Shinsendou (神仙道Way of the Divine Immortals), which according to a book I have on Onmyoudou (Onmyoudou no Hon ISBN4-05-600081-6) that inherited the part of Daoism that develops magical/supernatural powers as opposed to Onmyoudou which focused more on various divinatory practices, religious rituals, and some various magical practices. I assume by this they mean that Shinsendou involves more meditation and mysticism. According to said Onmyoudou book, Shinsendou sees immortality as more of an aid for becoming an enlightened being. Though, I think this book (or rather the author of that section) misunderstands the concept of Immortality for Daoists since it talks like Chinese concepts immortality are all about physically attaining lasting youth and longevity whereas Japanese Shinsendou focuses on immortality as a way to enlightenment (this is in fact a Japanese book written in Japanese so the author may be biased or a little ignorant of some facts). At any rate, I'm unsure if Shinsendou has any relation to any Japanese martial arts. Though some would say that the correlative cosmology of Yin-Yang and the Five Phases from China (and transmitted into Onmyoudou) is integrated into tea ceremony, flower arrangement, various performing arts, and martial arts like kendo in Japan.
EDIT: Oh, and in relation to Shinsendou there is a book in Japan called Honchou Shinsenden (本朝神仙伝) that refers to 37 Japanese immortals, and eighteen of them are Buddhists. This might give an idea on how this idea of Immortality was in Japan. Also, I glanced over some Japanese pages on Shinsendou and noticed talk of qigong, magical talismans, and talismans used by the Shangching Daoists.
[QUOTE=VERTIGO;322496]thnx bigjonmud
however i think that in every traditional and well organized martial arts school (beware of the japs, btw) and taoist temple of every chinatown around the western world you can find a little of what you search, Zanthetsoth[/QUOTE]What's wrong with the Japanese, may I ask? Besides the fact that in relevance to this topic Japanese martial arts has more influence from Shinto and Buddhism than directly from Daoism. Though there is something in Japan called Shinsendou (神仙道Way of the Divine Immortals), which according to a book I have on Onmyoudou (Onmyoudou no Hon ISBN4-05-600081-6) that inherited the part of Daoism that develops magical/supernatural powers as opposed to Onmyoudou which focused more on various divinatory practices, religious rituals, and some various magical practices. I assume by this they mean that Shinsendou involves more meditation and mysticism. According to said Onmyoudou book, Shinsendou sees immortality as more of an aid for becoming an enlightened being. Though, I think this book (or rather the author of that section) misunderstands the concept of Immortality for Daoists since it talks like Chinese concepts immortality are all about physically attaining lasting youth and longevity whereas Japanese Shinsendou focuses on immortality as a way to enlightenment (this is in fact a Japanese book written in Japanese so the author may be biased or a little ignorant of some facts). At any rate, I'm unsure if Shinsendou has any relation to any Japanese martial arts. Though some would say that the correlative cosmology of Yin-Yang and the Five Phases from China (and transmitted into Onmyoudou) is integrated into tea ceremony, flower arrangement, various performing arts, and martial arts like kendo in Japan.
EDIT: Oh, and in relation to Shinsendou there is a book in Japan called Honchou Shinsenden (本朝神仙伝) that refers to 37 Japanese immortals, and eighteen of them are Buddhists. This might give an idea on how this idea of Immortality was in Japan. Also, I glanced over some Japanese pages on Shinsendou and noticed talk of qigong, magical talismans, and talismans used by the Shangching Daoists.
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Original post: Zantetsoth
I don't think it's really against the Japanese, but Chinese philosophy is, indeed, my personal preference.
My problem is that I know of Buddhist churches and a few Confuscian meeting-places where I am, but I can't even mention Taoism without getting dumb looks.
I've studied lots of religions, and this one appeals to me, and I do not feel that I know it well enough. Still, because of what others know, I feel that it is just that every step I take, the more I become aware of the more steps that are required.
I don't think it's really against the Japanese, but Chinese philosophy is, indeed, my personal preference.
My problem is that I know of Buddhist churches and a few Confuscian meeting-places where I am, but I can't even mention Taoism without getting dumb looks.
I've studied lots of religions, and this one appeals to me, and I do not feel that I know it well enough. Still, because of what others know, I feel that it is just that every step I take, the more I become aware of the more steps that are required.
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Original post: VERTIGO
[QUOTE=Frater Mugen;322585]What's wrong with the Japanese, may I ask? Besides the fact that in relevance to this topic Japanese martial arts has more influence from Shinto and Buddhism than directly from Daoism.[/QUOTE]
Nothing wrong with them, they just aren't daoist (generally speaking) and thus they're out the main argument of this topic.
Also, Japanese martial arts aren't exactly great about the all "fluidity of movement" thing, my master often says that they "fight like big chunks of wood would, given mobility: they're rigid, fast maybe but still rigid".
And Daoism teaches fluidity.
On the other hand thank you for the informations about Onmyoudou: that was cool, and i'm going to explore it futhrer.
The only thing i feel it's odd is your concept of daoist immortality as just "wanting to be forever joung" etc: it's simply not so, you've got to check out some books about internal alchemy to understand this.
However Zantetsoth, i trust you've readed lots about daoism then?
[QUOTE=Frater Mugen;322585]What's wrong with the Japanese, may I ask? Besides the fact that in relevance to this topic Japanese martial arts has more influence from Shinto and Buddhism than directly from Daoism.[/QUOTE]
Nothing wrong with them, they just aren't daoist (generally speaking) and thus they're out the main argument of this topic.
Also, Japanese martial arts aren't exactly great about the all "fluidity of movement" thing, my master often says that they "fight like big chunks of wood would, given mobility: they're rigid, fast maybe but still rigid".
And Daoism teaches fluidity.
On the other hand thank you for the informations about Onmyoudou: that was cool, and i'm going to explore it futhrer.
The only thing i feel it's odd is your concept of daoist immortality as just "wanting to be forever joung" etc: it's simply not so, you've got to check out some books about internal alchemy to understand this.
However Zantetsoth, i trust you've readed lots about daoism then?
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Original post: Frater Mugen
No problem on the info on onmyoudou, however I believe you might have misread my post. Sorry if I wrote it in a confusing way, sometimes I get incoherent. I assume you are referring to this part:
Edit：Please disregard the above part where I think the author of that book I referred to is misunderstanding China's stance on Immortality, see my post here where I explain my mistake http://www.occultforums.com/showpost.ph ... stcount=58
Sorry for any misunderstandings.
Okay, I understand what you mean about avoiding Japanese schools of martial arts. Your word choice sounded derogatory in English, so I was curious as to why you thought to avoid them, now I know.VERTIGO;322737 wrote:Nothing wrong with them, they just aren't daoist (generally speaking) and thus they're out the main argument of this topic.
Also, Japanese martial arts aren't exactly great about the all "fluidity of movement" thing, my master often says that they "fight like big chunks of wood would, given mobility: they're rigid, fast maybe but still rigid".
And Daoism teaches fluidity.
On the other hand thank you for the informations about Onmyoudou: that was cool, and i'm going to explore it futhrer.
The only thing i feel it's odd is your concept of daoist immortality as just "wanting to be forever joung" etc: it's simply not so, you've got to check out some books about internal alchemy to understand this.
However Zantetsoth, i trust you've readed lots about daoism then?
No problem on the info on onmyoudou, however I believe you might have misread my post. Sorry if I wrote it in a confusing way, sometimes I get incoherent. I assume you are referring to this part:
It was that the book I was referring to was speaking as though immortality in China was only about maintaining youth and longevity, and that I was disagreeing with the author on this point. A rough translation of the Japanese is this, "...the Japanese Way of the Divine Immortals can be understood as an aid for Buddhist-like enlightenment and becoming like a Buddha, not like China where [immortality] is merely the goal of perpetual youth and longevity." As you can see, this author clearly does not really understand the tradition of immortality in China. Even a cursory understanding would make it obvious he's ignoring a huge part of the tradition. In Japan at least, expressions they use to describe Daoist immortality is furoufushi (不老不死), furouchousei (不老長生), or similar expressions which all approximately mean "perpetual youth and longevity," but "furoufushi" literally means "no old age, no death." It is possible that it is a popular misconception of the Japanese to see the tradition of Immortality in China to be primarily about gaining youthful vitality and prolonging life (which is a part, but certainly not the whole). I'm really in agreeance with you.Though, I think this book (or rather the author of that section) misunderstands the concept of Immortality for Daoists since it talks like Chinese concepts immortality are all about physically attaining lasting youth and longevity whereas Japanese Shinsendou focuses on immortality as a way to enlightenment (this is in fact a Japanese book written in Japanese so the author may be biased or a little ignorant of some facts).
Edit：Please disregard the above part where I think the author of that book I referred to is misunderstanding China's stance on Immortality, see my post here where I explain my mistake http://www.occultforums.com/showpost.ph ... stcount=58
Sorry for any misunderstandings.
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Original post: VERTIGO
whoops, yeah i indeed misreaded, sorry.
whoops, yeah i indeed misreaded, sorry.
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Original post: Draginvry
[QUOTE=Zantetsoth;322704]
I've studied lots of religions, and this one appeals to me, and I do not feel that I know it well enough.[/QUOTE]
Try not to think about it. Remember, the Tao that can be named is not the true Tao.
In fact, it could be said that Taoism is more about unlearning, than learning. The natural path is actually the most obvious course of action, not the least. It is merely a process of throwing out all the garbage people have been telling you over the years, and seeing the world for what it really is. That's the Tao.
[QUOTE=Zantetsoth;322704]
I've studied lots of religions, and this one appeals to me, and I do not feel that I know it well enough.[/QUOTE]
Try not to think about it. Remember, the Tao that can be named is not the true Tao.
In fact, it could be said that Taoism is more about unlearning, than learning. The natural path is actually the most obvious course of action, not the least. It is merely a process of throwing out all the garbage people have been telling you over the years, and seeing the world for what it really is. That's the Tao.
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Original post: Frater Mugen
[QUOTE=VERTIGO;322790]whoops, yeah i indeed misreaded, sorry.[/QUOTE]No problem, but I must now reveal a sad truth (lol). I actually looked at the text again and realized that I totally misread it myself
, lol.
My sincerest apologies to Haneda Shukai-sensei (羽田守快 the author of that section of the book)
A more accurate translation would be
"...the Japanese Way of the Divine Immortals, like China, does not merely [pursue] the goal of perpetual youth and longevity, but can be approached as an auxiliary measure to be used for [achieving] Buddhist-like enlightenment, becoming a Buddha, etc."
Sorry, my mistake caused some misunderstandings.
I'll post the Japanese below if people want to check it out
「日本の神仙道が、中国のように、単に不老長生を目的としたものではなく、仏教的な悟りや成仏のための補助手段として行われていたことがうかがえる。」
[QUOTE=VERTIGO;322790]whoops, yeah i indeed misreaded, sorry.[/QUOTE]No problem, but I must now reveal a sad truth (lol). I actually looked at the text again and realized that I totally misread it myself
, lol.My sincerest apologies to Haneda Shukai-sensei (羽田守快 the author of that section of the book)
A more accurate translation would be
"...the Japanese Way of the Divine Immortals, like China, does not merely [pursue] the goal of perpetual youth and longevity, but can be approached as an auxiliary measure to be used for [achieving] Buddhist-like enlightenment, becoming a Buddha, etc."
Sorry, my mistake caused some misunderstandings.
I'll post the Japanese below if people want to check it out
「日本の神仙道が、中国のように、単に不老長生を目的としたものではなく、仏教的な悟りや成仏のための補助手段として行われていたことがうかがえる。」
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Original post: Zantetsoth
Indeed, that is just about where my studies have gotten me, Draginvry. It is just difficult to accept it as so simple ("simple" as in concise).
Indeed, that is just about where my studies have gotten me, Draginvry. It is just difficult to accept it as so simple ("simple" as in concise).
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Original post: Draginvry
[QUOTE=Zantetsoth;323667]Indeed, that is just about where my studies have gotten me, Draginvry. It is just difficult to accept it as so simple ("simple" as in concise).[/QUOTE]
It's more habit than anything else. I do it too. I look at the world and know that it is simple, but I still try to make it difficult.
This is where meditating in the wilderness becomes very usefull.
[QUOTE=Zantetsoth;323667]Indeed, that is just about where my studies have gotten me, Draginvry. It is just difficult to accept it as so simple ("simple" as in concise).[/QUOTE]
It's more habit than anything else. I do it too. I look at the world and know that it is simple, but I still try to make it difficult.
This is where meditating in the wilderness becomes very usefull.
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Original post: Zantetsoth
Tell me about this wilderness meditation if you have done it. I would imagine that it is difficult, considering all the necessities which must be accounted for--food, and shelter, and what not.
Tell me about this wilderness meditation if you have done it. I would imagine that it is difficult, considering all the necessities which must be accounted for--food, and shelter, and what not.
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Original post: Jenfucius
I know with certain Taoists they do go on retreats but mainly in caves and what not. Many of them would simply stock up on food and the rest they would get from nature up in the mountains.Zantetsoth;323840 wrote:Tell me about this wilderness meditation if you have done it. I would imagine that it is difficult, considering all the necessities which must be accounted for--food, and shelter, and what not.
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Original post: Draginvry
[QUOTE=Zantetsoth;323840]Tell me about this wilderness meditation if you have done it. I would imagine that it is difficult, considering all the necessities which must be accounted for--food, and shelter, and what not.[/QUOTE]
I meant for short periods of time. You know, like less than fourteen hours. Just find a secluded spot and sit. This might be harder if you live in a large city. Search around.
Although I did spend about a week on a hilltop once. The "necessities" become less necessary when you've practiced natural resistance and fasting. Although it's a really good idea to have a designated safe spot to go when it is raining, especially if you live in a cold climate. If you're really worried about food, you can pack food with you. If you are only going to be meditating for a few days max, you can easily carry enough food in a backpack or two.
[QUOTE=Zantetsoth;323840]Tell me about this wilderness meditation if you have done it. I would imagine that it is difficult, considering all the necessities which must be accounted for--food, and shelter, and what not.[/QUOTE]
I meant for short periods of time. You know, like less than fourteen hours. Just find a secluded spot and sit. This might be harder if you live in a large city. Search around.
Although I did spend about a week on a hilltop once. The "necessities" become less necessary when you've practiced natural resistance and fasting. Although it's a really good idea to have a designated safe spot to go when it is raining, especially if you live in a cold climate. If you're really worried about food, you can pack food with you. If you are only going to be meditating for a few days max, you can easily carry enough food in a backpack or two.
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Original post: Zantetsoth
I did that just this weekend, actually. The desert offers much peace and the heat really isn't so bad this time of year.
I did that just this weekend, actually. The desert offers much peace and the heat really isn't so bad this time of year.
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Original post: Draginvry
[QUOTE=Zantetsoth;324882]I did that just this weekend, actually. The desert offers much peace and the heat really isn't so bad this time of year.[/QUOTE]
I've always wanted to meditate in a desert, but the closest one is a bit west of here and I don't want to drive that far. I always prefer to take my bicycle to my meditation spots, and the farthest I've ever biked was about 30 miles one-way. But I normally meditate in town, sometimes at the creekbed I used to explore as a kid, or down the country road that I live on. The countryside is actually a couple of miles from my house. There's nothing out there but a few ranches and longhorn cattle.
But over the last couple of years I've gotten into the habit of meditating in the house because it is quiet except for Sundays. Much better than the apartment I had in college, which was often stuffy and noisy. The only reason I meditate outside now is if I want to be around nature, or practice physical resistance. For example, meditating on a cold night is good. I like meditating at night anyway because I can sit out in the backyard and look at the stars, and it's like there's nobody but me, even though I know that other people are doing the same thing.
The only thing I really look for in a meditation spot is the assurance that nobody will distract me. There's been a few times where I've gone out in the middle of nowhere where I was sure I was alone. Oddly enough, even then you still find people there. This one time I met this extremely interesting witch while I was doing an extended meditation. It makes me wonder who I'd find if I went somewhere that wasn't near a town at all. It seems that when I'm not trying to be noticed, I find the most interesting people of all.
[QUOTE=Zantetsoth;324882]I did that just this weekend, actually. The desert offers much peace and the heat really isn't so bad this time of year.[/QUOTE]
I've always wanted to meditate in a desert, but the closest one is a bit west of here and I don't want to drive that far. I always prefer to take my bicycle to my meditation spots, and the farthest I've ever biked was about 30 miles one-way. But I normally meditate in town, sometimes at the creekbed I used to explore as a kid, or down the country road that I live on. The countryside is actually a couple of miles from my house. There's nothing out there but a few ranches and longhorn cattle.
But over the last couple of years I've gotten into the habit of meditating in the house because it is quiet except for Sundays. Much better than the apartment I had in college, which was often stuffy and noisy. The only reason I meditate outside now is if I want to be around nature, or practice physical resistance. For example, meditating on a cold night is good. I like meditating at night anyway because I can sit out in the backyard and look at the stars, and it's like there's nobody but me, even though I know that other people are doing the same thing.
The only thing I really look for in a meditation spot is the assurance that nobody will distract me. There's been a few times where I've gone out in the middle of nowhere where I was sure I was alone. Oddly enough, even then you still find people there. This one time I met this extremely interesting witch while I was doing an extended meditation. It makes me wonder who I'd find if I went somewhere that wasn't near a town at all. It seems that when I'm not trying to be noticed, I find the most interesting people of all.