23 current

[66dragonfly66]

I started reading an article posted on the reading list discussion just begun and its really interesting.

Francis Breakspear

anyways, the article is about the issue of evil and the issue of the psychopath...

So I have read many times magicians talk about the psychopath, as the fully self aware individual, self possessed and upright in their own eyes. I have read non chaotes talk about this, but there is always this idea that the real psychopaths are evil, and somehow we who are able to master true negative power and do good things with it are not bad...

so starhawk writes about working with leviathan, and so does Anton Long. But Anton Long is evil and believes that humanity breeds complacency with things like compassion and empathy. I think that empathy has evolved as a sign of our increased awareness, but I can see how someone who believes in darwinian fitness and in the alienation of otherness to believe in such majikal fascism. My question though is this... do people disbelieve that satanic organizations exist or that they actually are capable of real evil? I have mixed feelings, but I grew up pentecostal and know people to this day that help people out of trauma from satanic ritual abuse. there have been scares of this stuff, where it gets overblown... but my theory is this: there are many religious groups that use trauma and violence and power control for all sorts of reasons and they have little to do with one overarching satan. the Order of Nine Angles is a new phosphoric current, that using the 23 current does not itself mean that people are being evil, but there are different ethical rules to these "outdwellers." I also believe however there is a real illuminati that has had real connections to both occult and satanic groups. The connection though seems confusing, the pyramid structure is about mind control and not liberation...
but i almost feel that most of our violence in this aeon has to do with abadon martial energy. Its masculinity, and this sort of patriarchy is hired wired into us.

I would also say I think that maybe humyns were bio engineered from a race of reptiles from the star Sirius B, and that the fall is a literal story of our escape, but that in some ways we are very genetically limited, and that most of our gripping about people is gripping about our limitations which define us. Also though, this should dwarf our sense of greatness, just like the realization that whatever God consciousness is, is not humyn in anyway that we know to be us. (except when we interact with our future selves, some of which are not humyn either, or ourselves in other dimensions, etc etc)

Did AO Spare really use, or be part of the 23 current, because people I have met that talk about TOPY seem to think so, sometimes i think this is true, and that old voodoo majik uses this reptillian stuff and sometimes i think not. Or that the liminal rites are using reptillian parts of our brain. I also wonder about Kenneth Grant, but that typhonian stuff is much more overt.

[akimbomoss]

I suggest buying and watching Maybe Logic DVD by Deepleaf productions along with the DVD extras. It will answer most of your questions.

As for the psychopathy they are usually attracted to being a Death Defier ala Carlos Castaneda. That way they can indulge in their lust for power. But after a while this starts to become boring... and more... is needed.

[Nahemah]

I 'm glad you found the list interesting. [thumbup]

This is a subject that inspires much debate and argument,re the nature of good and evil.

I will return here later,not got much time atm,lol,busy Tuesday,but I want to contribute.

Fascinating post 66dragonfly66,I don't get to talk about this kind of thing often,lol,I do have a long standing morbid curiosity regarding ONA and the nature of empathy/psychopathy etc.

More later.

[66dragonfly66]

Well, I enjoy what I read of Robert Anton Willson but... have this confusion about his work too. You know some people claim that Timothy Leary was a Fed? and that the distribution of acid in the 60s from Manson was an illuminati plot? Maybe Helter Skelter is the same thing as the immantenization of the eschaton? (this is in response to death defiers and maybe logic academy).

In my opinion this would make sense and be congruent, but really that end of times reality is something that happens inside us when we see our fictions of bygone eras is silly and that both future and past exist and coexist now within us and heaven and hell are not separate but our projections, so we can live in heaven now (if we want to).

crack cocaine and AIDS are both said to be government plots. I can see this about crack, but AIDS is maybe an extraterrestial virus. I am certain that some viruses begin as memes (ideas) and are later translated into physical form. Ed Steinbecker writes that people have remitted HIV through awakening the kundalini (he used the tarot) whereas a friend of mine said a stregheria wizard in washington DC did the same thing through dragon majik.

While Robert Anton Willson writes to break us from our brain washing, he still has some opinions about these matters, and as far as I know used the whole context of conspiracy as his avenue for waking people up. There is alot of silly psychology around the issue, so this makes sense, people tend to become delusional. So the pyramid in freemasonry and the pyramid in life may not be the same force, except they have congruent forms. Maybe both a product of our current aeon. Even if satanists dont run the world I bet there are some powerful socio-political ones that think they do, or think they are more evolved than a few of us. (and William cooper... no not him, someone connected to him who shot an alien grey before the Feds killed him said that there are some alien human hybrids that can speak most of the human languages, have super memory and live some 400 years, alive today. My dad would say that maybe this is part of the old race of the giants, the Annuanaki still alive today).

[reptilian]

Absolutely none of this makes any sense to me. Researching terms.

Edit: Researched. I try NOT to be skeptical but all of this sounds like nonsense.

[akimbomoss]

I agree with reptilian.

There was a guy on usenet once called Kansan1225 that sounded alot like what you just said. You're taking all this information and running crazy with it.

This is called "Chapel Perilous". Don Juan called it "indulging". But don't despair as there is some truth to what you're saying but it's less than 50%.

[Madavascus]

so starhawk writes about working with leviathan, and so does Anton Long. But Anton Long is evil and believes that humanity breeds complacency with things like compassion and empathy. I think that empathy has evolved as a sign of our increased awareness, but I can see how someone who believes in darwinian fitness and in the alienation of otherness to believe in such majikal fascism. My question though is this... do people disbelieve that satanic organizations exist or that they actually are capable of real evil? I have mixed feelings, but I grew up pentecostal and know people to this day that help people out of trauma from satanic ritual abuse. there have been scares of this stuff, where it gets overblown... but my theory is this: there are many religious groups that use trauma and violence and power control for all sorts of reasons and they have little to do with one overarching satan. the Order of Nine Angles is a new phosphoric current, that using the 23 current does not itself mean that people are being evil, but there are different ethical rules to these "outdwellers." I also believe however there is a real illuminati that has had real connections to both occult and satanic groups. The connection though seems confusing, the pyramid structure is about mind control and not liberation...
but i almost feel that most of our violence in this aeon has to do with abadon martial energy. Its masculinity, and this sort of patriarchy is hired wired into us.

Dear 66dragonfly66,

I have had the honor of working with someone from (or informally affiliated to) the Order of Nine Angles, as an independent occultist a few years ago. The young gentleman (the late Aethelius Zardex of the Volastus Nexion) was very well versed in the occult writings of Anton Long and the vast corpus of the ONA, but in his acts never seemed to me to lack any compassion or empathy... In fact, his art relied quite heavily on empathy. (Cf. David Myatt's The Numinous Way) An apparent paradox when you consider the amorality of the ONA.

But to answer your question, I think most do in fact disbelieve that satanic "organizations" like the ONA are capable of real evil. Specialists in occult crime may not be so incredulous. To my knowledge, no crime has so far been reportedly done in their name, which fortuitously aids them in keeping to the shadows.

The ONA itself is a nebulous acausal entity, and those associated with it aim to keep it that way I think. It has been created by a powerful occult genius, and is not likely to die anytime soon. I expect to hear of the ONA in the future, when I reach a more venerable age.

And if I may be so candid, I think there's no occult organization I fear more than an overt, mainstream and undiluted ONA.

[66dragonfly66]

huh

ok, it might be nonsense but maybe thats why i am asking. its my expectations that most chaotes would disbelieve in these concerns.

but the last post was the most interesting because I have both enjoyed and reviled the the writings of ONA that I have read. I bought liber koth once and i remember seeing into the abyss through it. It was the darkest book I have ever owned, maybe just because I was able to touch or feel really dark power.

A friend of mine took mescaline for two weeks and met leviathan and his experience flipped his aura inside out, and is now born again because of his experience. maybe he was unable to work with the power because it was so intense, powerful, and amoral, but I am not sure. He is still kinda delusional, but then again, I assume I am too (and the people who have experienced some form of ritual abuse).

[Nahemah]

I've not read the Breakspear article yet,so bear this in mind,but the points raised by 66dragonfly66 are good ones.

Have a look at this Disinfo article.The letter from a 'psychopath' is fascinating reading.I often wonder about how we define human nature and why we categorise it the way we do.It seems all our 'behavioural boxes' are very clearly annoted and defined,but they do not account for any growth or adaptation in regard to those behaviours.They are tight boxes,with no accounting for deviation from the considered 'deviant ' behaviours listed in the ICD or DSM.[Well,there is a recent type class which has been given the title 'nomadic',but more on that later.]

Once you are labelled it sticks.

http://www.disinfo.com/2011/10/letter-f ... sychopath/

Ssormany you said a lot of what I was going to say,beat me to it ,lol.

It's usually best to describe ONA activities with vague terms,as where there is no visible proof of any criminal/illegal actions,how can anybody be certain of what may have occured or otherwise,in regard to rituals ,sacrifices or any other alleged 'black magicks' ?
A little notoriety never hurt anyone,publicity wise,though ,eh? [crazy]

66dragonfly66,The 23 Current is a strange tide,look at the story of Kerry Thornley [Lord Omar Khyaam Ravenhurst] co author of the Principia Discordia:

http://www.american-buddha.com/letterkerry.htm

http://www.american-buddha.com/kerrythorn.htm

There is much talk of Vril power,Aliens,CIA conspiracy and so on,Nazism and Illuminati get twisted in somewhere too.

As a side note,did you know that The Simon Necronomicon was written by Peter Levenda,an expert on Nazi Occultism/Esotericism?

"Fascinating details are revealed, including the bizarre world of "wandering bishops" who appear throughout the Kennedy assassinations; a CIA mind control program run amok in the United States and Canada; *a famous American spiritual leader who had ties to Lee Harvey Oswald in the weeks and months leading up to the assassination of President Kennedy; and the "Manson secret."
*Kerry Thronley is the leader discussed in this book.

http://www.sinisterforces.info

How far down does this rabbit hole go?


I am not a fan of the Alien/Reptile hysteria,but I do get the metaphor,in relation to the Limbic or 'Primitive' brain.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limbic_system

[Above article is not great but the pic is good,so have a look anyways.]

http://www.ahaf.org/alzheimers/about/un ... brain.html

And next: "Banish with Laughter" [yay]

http://science.howstuffworks.com/enviro ... ghter4.htm

Then this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothalam ... renal_axis

Now think on the term: "For further information consult your Pineal gland" [devil]

And I too have found a lot of interesting and workable information on the ONA site.

But I also know of Anton Long [David Myatt: allegedly] and others,from the good old Combat 18/Neo Nazi skinhead/football related violence days.Ah nostalgia:real people WERE harmed in the making and actions of this group,however,just saying:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_18


More later.

[reptilian]

Maybe my morality (which I loathe with all my power) is causing a knee-jerk reaction but I fail to understand why anyone would give the time of day to an organization that claims that you must commit murder and get away with it before you can be considered a true member. The fact that anyone takes them seriously is exactly what makes them dangerous.
Whether they're on to something in terms of occult practices or not is kind of secondary to their attitude towards people. As a true crime buff, specializing in serial killers, I understand what you're saying about psychopathy but my real problem is with the very basis of the ONA. I immediately dismissed any relevance they may or may not have because they publicly condone human sacrifice and require it of their initiates. To me, there's even a difference between choosing to commit murder yourself, and encouraging or expecting another person to do so.

Apparently, my colors are showing so I'll stop talking about this.

[Nahemah]

@reptilian,please do stay involved in the discussion.We are talking about something with unpleasant connotations,but it's better we discuss such matters than leave them unturned,when they are brought to attention,dont you think? No one has condoned anything,as far as I have read,but I do think it is easy to discuss objectives and doctrines as abstractions and often and lose sight of the 'real world damage' caused by beliefs and those who may act upon them.

The well is deep and the waters murky,there is no doubt on that from me.

Maybe my morality (which I loathe with all my power) is causing a knee-jerk reaction but I fail to understand why anyone would give the time of day to an organization that claims that you must commit murder and get away with it before you can be considered a true member. The fact that anyone takes them seriously is exactly what makes them dangerous.

Here is a repeat of 'why I take them seriously' reptilian,please read the page.Mr Myatt's previous involvement in group dynamics,was violent and people got hurt/killed.

But I also know of Anton Long [David Myatt: allegedly] and others,from the good old Combat 18/Neo Nazi skinhead/football related violence days.Ah nostalgia:real people WERE harmed in the making and actions of this group,however,just saying:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_18

Neo Nazism raises it's ugly head,time and again,wherever Myatt's name is mentioned.
Failure to recognise an enemy in our midst,is what makes them dangerous,I believe.

You made a very good point in this:

To me, there's even a difference between choosing to commit murder yourself, and encouraging or expecting another person to do so.

[Nahemah]

http://occultebooks.com/articles/fb_Cha ... hopath.htm

Linkback to the Article mentioned by the OP.

While Robert Anton Willson writes to break us from our brain washing, he still has some opinions about these matters, and as far as I know used the whole context of conspiracy as his avenue for waking people up. There is alot of silly psychology around the issue, so this makes sense, people tend to become delusional.

They do indeed.

Another article from that site,that I think has some resonance in this discussion:

http://occultebooks.com/articles/rd_whitemagicians.htm

Conspiracies happen,Governments and other power bases,such as Theocracies etc.have long histories of behaving with impunity in matters of 'National Security','Subversive/Heretical Rebellions'and 'State Secrets',since,well,since the beginnings of settled society really...Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely,so it is said.Ahem.

Conspiracies/Theories still abound today and there are those who promote them and profit from them most,whose interestes require a conitnued state of fear and distress in believers.A house divided cannot stand,after all.

[anton]

Well, I enjoy what I read of Robert Anton Willson but... have this confusion about his work too. You know some people claim that Timothy Leary was a Fed?

The whole myth about Tim being a Fed comes from a series of documents selectively released by the FBI after his death. Basically the story goes that he 'testified' against some associates in the radical left in 1974 in order to try and speed up his prison release. However this whole incident was not actually a secrey. Tim wrote about himself in his 1983 biography. The whole thing about him being a fed was apparently a distortion of the truth originating from the Associated Press according to the article "Sometimes Lying Means Only Telling a Small Part of the Truth" from the book "You are being lied to" from disinfo.

According to this article, no-one was actually harmed by Tim's interaction with the FBI, with the exception of a former attorney, who received three months in prison as a result of a cocaine bust, apparently a set-up from one of Tim's former girlfriends and a not a result of Tim's testimony. The Weather Underground, the radical left organisation that helped Tim escape from prison were not impacted by the testimony at all.

In fact, it seems like the whole 'Tim was a Fed' story is typical tabloid press sensationalism and authoritarian propaganda designed to try and discredit one of the foremost anti-authoritarian thinkers of the 20th Century.

"Those who want to gnaw on his bones never knew his heart" ~ Ken Kesey

"He stood up bravely for freedom of speech and behaviour and deserves to be remembered for that" ~ Winona Ryder