OccultForum.org

Original post: MuRdeR

Question is the Topic

Original post: doh

Visualization is only a tool. Granted, for me at least, a necessary one, usually. A request of a god/ess may be granted, kind of like a prayer (yeah I believe in that), but actually CHANGING things is different. You have to know what it is you are changing and focus on it and think about it. For me, visualizing it is an intregal part of that process.

But, that being said, I do believe that there are some that may (I really don't know so I can't state it as fact) be able to accomplish magick without visualization.

Original post: Rin Daemoko

Original post: Ludi

Yes there is a type of magick which requires no visualization, and that is magick which requires no visualization. I have had fine success with this type of magick.

Original post: MuRdeR

thanks for the replys lol @ Ludi

Original post: Nalyd23

Opening your eyes and living in the NOW requires no visualization as well. Very Magickal.

Original post: Quidgyboo

I think this is the type of question you need to ask a person who has been blind from birth. I am not saying they can not visualise, but how do they do it? They have never seen anything so what does something look like to them? Does it look like anything?

Original post: visceral/spagyrical

If I'm not mistaken, blind people don't dream visually, but with other senses. A blind man once asked Robert Bruce to teach him to Astral Project, so Bruce came up with a method based on the sense of touch. You basically use your energy body to touch various parts of your body until you're so good at manipulating your energy body that you can just step outside whenever you want. Bruce says the astral plane is just as easy to navigate without sight as it is with sight.

v/s

Original post: palindroem

Yep . . . many types of yoga don't require visualization.

Y'all do practice your asana's . . . right?

Original post: Frater Manjet

I am often at odds with the term "visualization" as it is so commonly connected only with the "visual" or optical faculties of image. Visualization as was mentioned here earlier is far more than "seeing" an image. Visualizations can and in my case often do include the spectrum of sensory images. Smell is an image, sound is an image etc...

I would also like to point out that as our physical senses are are merely processed stimuli within our brains; and that I apply the same concept on a deeper level to the faculty of mind. To me concepts and emotions are also aspects of visualization. I have had many visions of abstract concepts that cannot be conveyed other than by experience.

Try to envision or as I prefer "conceive" of happiness or sorrow etc... with no casual attachment.

In this regard I would say that no magick is devoid of "visualization". If there is intent there is visualization.

While I also agree that the practce of Yoga ( yes, I work with my asanas a great deal LOL! ) does not by neccesity need visualization, but I see yoga more as a tool of magick than magick in and of itself.

- VVV

Original post: Ludi

Yes, I suppose if you don't define "visualisation" as "the process of visualising or seeing," but in some other way, you could say that magick requires visualisation.

Original post: kollision

Even saying a word usually involves visualization.

Original post: Frater Manjet

Indeed a word either spoken, or written is merely an iconic symbol of a conceptual image no matter how intangible.

- VVV

Original post: Nalyd23

But isn't Magick about using ALL of your senses? Is that not the very heart of it? Visualization is just one part of certain techniques but not the total package. I agree with Fr. Manjet in this : [QUOTE=Frater Manjet]I would also like to point out that as our physical senses are are merely processed stimuli within our brains; and that I apply the same concept on a deeper level to the faculty of mind. To me concepts and emotions are also aspects of visualization. I have had many visions of abstract concepts that cannot be conveyed other than by experience.[/QUOTE]And v/s brought up a very good point about someone being physically blind and forced to develop other senses to essentially "see". That, I thought, was part of what we are trying to consciously do when using the methods and techniques of Magick.

Original post: MuRdeR

Amazing Explaination

Original post: Ludi

Visualization is just one part of certain techniques but not the total package

I was under the impression that by the word "visualization" Fr Manjet meant "the total package." But I was under the impression that that was not what the original poster meant by the word.

Original post: Nalyd23

Well Ludi, that is not what I SAW when I read what Fr. Manjet posted. It took me a second to get a HOLD on what he was saying in order to GRASP it. Now that you have spoken I think I HEAR the message LOUD and clear.
OK, there are three conscious output systems that I know of - Visual, Kinesthetic, and Auditory. If you study up on these and the language in which people use to convey their thoughts you will find keys to their modes of thinking. Some people are more visual and will use "visual" metaphors when thinking, some invoke "feelings" when thinking, and others may "hear" their thoughts spoken or just sounds. Obviously these second two do not require any "visuals".

Original post: Ludi

I'm not sure why you are hollering at me, Nalyd....

*puzzling*

Original post: Frater Manjet

That seems to be what we are discussing... aspects and applications of visualization.

- VVV

Original post: Ludi

Original topic:

Are there any Type of Magick needs no visualization ?

Original post: Frater Manjet

How are we going off-topic?

It seems as if the discussion if flowing from and still relevant to the original post. Conversations often have side discussions, small scenic routes along the way so to speak.

If you wish to respond to the original post be our guest. If you have a strong enough opinion that we are off-topic I would appreciate you sharing so if we are straying too far we can get back on track.

edit: please note this is not a criticism Ludi , just curious.

- VVV

Original post: Ludi

I'm curious and rather lost in this conversation, because I can not tell whether we are having a conversation about the meaning of the word "visualization" or discussing methods of magick which require no visualization, or proposing that there are no methods of magick which require no visualization. And then I see myself being hollered at for some reason, and I am distressed and confused, is all.

Original post: Frater Manjet

[QUOTE=Ludi] I'm curious and rather lost in this conversation, because I can not tell whether we are having a conversation about the meaning of the word "visualization" or discussing methods of magick which require no visualization, or proposing that there are no methods of magick which require no visualization. And then I see myself being hollered at for some reason, and I am distressed and confused, is all. [/QUOTE]

Whoa...Ludi, nobody is hollering at you. I just asked how you felt it was off-topic. Honestly just take a breath and relax.

We are discussing all of the above.

Just because every reply does not directly refer to the main post does not mean it is off-topic. Conversations and especially discussions like this flow about touching on side topics as we explore the primary issue.

I am not coming down on you I just didn't ( and still don't ) see how we are off-topic here.

edit: I have no idea why the quote isn't working....?

- VVV

Original post: visceral/spagyrical

Visualization is something that a lot of people talk about but don't really seem to understand.

Given that, I, for one, think a discussion of what visualization is is very important when discussing when it is used in magic.

v/s

Original post: Nalyd23

Ludi, in my previous post, those words in all capitals were not meant to be taken as hollering, but as a demonstration of what I said in the second part of it. It is very on-topic and was addressing your post before it. SAW = visual, HOLD and GRASP = Kinesthetic, and HEAR and LOUD = Auditory
These are our conscious output systems of communication. It provides a key to understanding how we think as well. I was trying to show that visualization is not the only mode of thinking. I will admit there is more to it than that but that will take it beyond the scope of this thread. As far as the original topic/question, the original poster seemed to like something that was said in the above somewhere :[QUOTE=MuRdeR]Amazing Explaination [/QUOTE] So I think we are on the right track.:mrgreen: